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#3204282 - 02/10/11 06:39 PM PAVN missile units  
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Redcoalition Offline
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I have one question. I think this information is quite easy to find, but i didn't found anything concrete :S
How did the missile units of the PAVN were formed? I mean, the vietnamese officers were sent to where? Where they were formed (wich University/Academy)? What was the participation of soviets on the formation of the missile units?! When and how the missiles get arrived? Wich patents operated the sites? How much time the soviet experts watched PAVN's sites operation? Did the soviet experts manned the sites? If yes, for how long?

Thank you in advance. I would be very greatful in get this questions answered for AAR's and search.

Another thing, the vietnamese operators knew about the SR-71? If not, when they became advised about it?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3204327 - 02/10/11 07:18 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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I have one question. I think this information is quite easy to find, but i didn't found anything concrete :S

These are more than one...
biggrin

How did the missile units of the PAVN were formed? I mean, the vietnamese officers were sent to where? Where they were formed (wich University/Academy)?

Beside Leningrad is the Air Defense SAM units Academy, in Gatchina.
All WarPact, and friendly nations were teached there.
Live shootings were done in the Asuluk training ground, or at home, defending your country.

What was the participation of soviets on the formation of the missile units?! When and how the missiles get arrived?

Both R&D and military were present. They made field modifications, to counter the evolving jamming patterns.

Wich patents operated the sites?

They had ~30 battery, and moved them around 150 prepared site.

How much time the soviet experts watched PAVN's sites operation? Did the soviet experts manned the sites? If yes, for how long?

Yes, till 1972.

Another thing, the vietnamese operators knew about the SR-71? If not, when they became advised about it?

They tried badly to shoot it down.
The biggest issue was that Soviet Union, and Chinese relations were broken that time.
Russians recognized, that all of their technical equipment were checked out, and probably copied by the Chinese that they sent to Vietnam on rail.
So they refused to send the more advanced Volhov/Neva equipment to Vietnam, whatever the engineers proposed in the field.
Vietnamese had to fight with the export version, Dvina.

SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F)
S-75M Volhov (SA-2E)
S-125M Neva (SA-3B)

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/10/11 07:18 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3204426 - 02/10/11 08:36 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Hpasp]  
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What about origination of the vietnamese officers, where they were trainned before travel to USSR. Do you have this information?!

They had ~30 battery, and moved them around 150 prepared site.
Sorry for the bad english, i mean, which ranks operated the systems?! Patent = false cognate on my language.

They tried badly to shoot it down.
I understand, but the vietnamese knew that what they were trying to shoot down was, in fact, the recon plane SR-71?! I mean, was the information of Blackbirds flying over North Vietnam air space in their hands?

Yes, till 1972.
In which positions did the soviet experts operated on Dvina batteries?!
i.e: Battery commander, fire officer, tracking operator, etc.

Thank you once again! yep

Last edited by Redcoalition; 02/10/11 08:40 PM.
#3205122 - 02/11/11 03:42 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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I understand, but the vietnamese knew that what they were trying to shoot down was, in fact, the recon plane SR-71?! I mean, was the information of Blackbirds flying over North Vietnam air space in their hands?

They had to document each shootings...
...just check this doc:
http://narod.ru/disk/19940925000/%D0%A175%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%20%20SR71.djvu.html

In which positions did the soviet experts operated on Dvina batteries?!
i.e: Battery commander, fire officer, tracking operator, etc.


All of those.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3676724 - 11/06/12 09:10 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Some interesting numbers...

In 1965, two regiment was formed.
236/61, 62, 63, 64 with the old SA-75 Dvina
238/81, 82, 83, 84 with the "new" SA-75M Dvina-A
Soviet Union exported 4 SA-75, 8 SA-75M, and 504 11D missile

1966, five new regiment was formed
285/71, 72, 73, 74
274/86, 87, 88, 89
257/76, 77, 78, 79
275/66, 67, 68, 69
278/91, 92, 93, 94
Soviet Union exported 18 SA-75M, and 932 11D missile

1967, four new regiment was formed
263/41, 42, 43, 44
267/51, 52, 53, 54
268/31, 32, 33, 34
261/56, 57, 58, 59
Soviet Union exported 18 SA-75M, and 2128 11D missile

After that only losses were replenished...

1968, 18 SA-75M, and 2348 11D missile
1969, 4 SA-75M, and 644 11D missile
1972, 12 SA-75M, and 1102 11D missile
1973, 216 11D missile
1979, 181 11D missile

All in all, they had 44 SAM units, for 82 systems and 8000 missiles.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3676727 - 11/06/12 09:15 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Thank you!..

#3682690 - 11/15/12 05:57 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3683256 - 11/16/12 05:10 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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From here for couple of pages - Hpasp's presentation of operation "Linebacker":

SAM Forum

Also some rabdomly distributed info, gathered thru the old topic:
Click to reveal..
Commander Nguyen Van Phiet of the 261/57 SAM battalion, describing how to shoot down a B-52. He downed three. (Brick 01, Tan 03, Scarlet 03)


Linebacker-II (1972 December 18-29) contained 25 raid, altogether ~1500 planes.

USAF Aircraft Losses Dec. 18-29, 1972
Date Type Call Sign Target (Mission) Cause
Dec. 18 F-111A Snug 40 Hanoi Radio unk.
Dec. 18 B-52G Charcoal 01 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52G Peach 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52D Rose 01 Hanoi Radio SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Quilt 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Brass 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Orange 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Straw 02 Gia Lam rail yard SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Olive 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Tan 03 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Scarlet 03 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Blue 01 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 22 F-111A Jackle 33 Kinh No complex unk.
Dec. 23 EB-66C Hunt 02 (non combat) engine out
Dec. 26 B-52D Ebony 02 Giap Nhi rail yard SA-2
Dec. 26 B-52D Ash 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 27 F-4E DeSoto 03 (strike escort) MiG-21
Dec. 27 F-4E Vega 02 (MiGCAP) MiG-21
Dec. 27 HH-53 Jolly Green (rescue) small arms
Dec. 27 B-52D Ash 02 SAM site SA-2
Dec. 27 B-52D Cobalt 02 Truan Quan rail yard SA-2
Source: Pacific Air Forces

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Fifteen B52s went down outside of North Vietnam. Eight were due to combat. Seven were “operational losses,” which occurred while B52s were enroute to combat areas in Vietnam. (Information listed below).



Olive 2 B52D 11-22-72 U-Tapao SA2 damage at Vinh. Crashed near NKP. Lost 4 engines on one side. 6 crewmen bailed out/recovered. No. 55-0110.
P- N.J. Ostozny; C/P- Tony Foley; RN- Bud Rech; N- Bob Estes; EWO- Larry Stephens; G- Ronald W. Sellers. (Combat loss, 1).

Peach 2 B52G 12-18-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 58-0246. (Combat loss, 2).

Brass 2 B52G 12-20-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 57-6481. (Combat loss, 3).

Straw 2 B52D 12-21-72 Andersen Crew bailed out over Laos. R/N Maj Frank Gould not recovered. Status XX. Other crewmembers recovered.
No. 56-0669. (Combat loss, 4).

Ash 1 B52D 12-26-72 U-Tapao Crashed at U-Tapao. Attempted go-around with 4 engines out on same side. 4 KIA. CP, 1st Lt Bob Hymel & Gunner, TSgt Spencer Grippen were rescued. No. 56-0584. The A/C made a determination that they should bailout before the crash, but since the gunner was wounded and they felt he might not be able to physically execute the bailout, they decided as a crew to try and bring the plane in. Ironically, the only survivors of the crash were the C/P and the wounded gunner. In addition, the C/P would not have survived had he not been rescued by a crewmember from another BUFF who watched the crash, and rushed into the wreck to pull the
C/P out before the plane burned up. Lord, that we could have more men like these. September 11, 2001, Lt Col Hymel, Retired, was sitting at his desk as a Defense
Intelligence Agency analyst in the Pentagon. He was one of the thousands of Americans killed that day. (Combat loss, 5).

Ash 2 B52D 12-27-72 U-Tapao No. 56-0599. Bailed out over Laos. Crew was from 28th BW, Ellsworth AFB, SD. P- Capt John Mize; CP-Terrence Gruters; RN- Capt Bill North; NAV- Bill Robinson; EWO- Capt Dennis Andersen; G- TSgt Peter Whalen. Target was SAM site VN-243, near Hanoi. After bomb release, hit by SAM. Lost all 4 engines on left wing. All crew members were picked up by rescue helicopters. (Combat loss, 6).

Ruby 02 B52D 1-4-73, U-Tapao, No. 55-0056. SA2 hit over Vinh. Went feet
wet, crew bailed out, all rescued by US Navy. (Combat loss, 7).

(Unknown) B-52D July 8, 1967 no. 56-0601 was hit over Vinh and suffered a complete hydraulic failure. The pilot elected to go into Danang rather than bail the crew out. After touchdown, the A/C was unable to stop or negotiate a go-around. They ran off the end of the runway into a mine field. All forward crewmembers perished. The Gunner, Albert Whatley survived with the help of a Marine fire truck crew. Crew was from Columbus AFB,GA. (Combat loss, Cool. Whatley cannot remember the call sign.

(Unknown) B52D 5-8-69 Andersen, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It started a right turn after t/o and crashed in the sea killing all six aboard. Pilot- Capt Larry Broadhead; CP-.Maurice Lundy; RN- Capt Russell Platt; NAV- Maj James Sipes; EWO- Lt Thomas McCormick; G- MSgt Harry Deal. (Operational loss no. 1).

(Unknown) B52D 7-28-69 Anderson, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It crashed into the sea killing all eight aboard. (Op Loss no. 2).

(Unknown) B52G 7-8-72 Anderson, no. 59-2600 was over the Philippine Sea. For unknown reasons its radome separated from the airplane. The pilot/copilot reacted incorrectly and subsequently lost all airspeed. All six crewmen successfully bailed out, but one, the RN (a LtCol) got a streamer. The other five crewmen were rescued. (No. 3)

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0047 collided with no. 57-0179 over the South Pacific while circling awaiting KC-135As for pre-strike air refueling. 4 survivors, 8 fatalities among the 12 crewmen. (Op Loss 4).

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0179 collided with no. 57-0047.
(Operational loss no. 5).

Red 1 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0627 had a mid-air collision with no. 56-0595 over South China Sea near Saigon while “changing formation lead.” See below, next entry. Seven survivors, six fatalities(#) among the 13 crewmembers. Crew: E-06, 22nd BW, March AFB, CA. P- Capt John Suther; CP- Wilcox Creeden; RN- Maj Paul Avolese(#); Nav- Lt William Gabel; EWO- Capt David Bitten(#);G-SSgt Lynn Chase.; Airborne Commander- Maj Gen William Crumm, 3rd (#), Air Division Commander. (Op loss 6).

Red 2 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0595 collided with no. 56-0627. See entry above. Crew: E-10, 454th BW. P- Capt George Westbrook; CP- (name unk); RN- George Jones; EWO- Toki Endo G- Msgt Olen McLaughlin (#). NAV- unkown. (Op loss 7).


Out of 498 BUFF sorties over Hanoi/Haiphong the loss rate was 1.7% (.017). Source: Linebacker II: A View From the Rock published by the Air War College in 1979. (Note: 2001 Boeing records list 32 B52 aircraft hit by SAMs. Other sources state that there were a total of 724 B-52 sorties flown during LB II).

---------------------------------------------------


During the period April 9, 1972 thru January 14, 1973, 16 other B-52s (one G-model and 15 D-models) received major battle damage (caused by SAMs), over North Vietnam. Following is a list of these sixteen B52s (aircraft recovered, no deaths or injuries reported):

Serial No. Date of damage Remarks (All damage noted was from SAMs)

D 56-0665 4-9-72 Landed at Danang and flown to U-Tapao, Thailand. 156 damaged areas. Repaired and placed back in service, according to Boeing maintenance records. Contradicting this information, the plane is “unaccounted for” according to authors Dorr & Peacock. Contradicting Dorr’s information, there is a B52D now on display at Wright-Patterson with the number 56-0665 painted on the side. If you’re confused, read the next two paragraphs.

D 56-0589 4-23-72 Landed at Danang and later flown to U-Tapao. Approximately 400 outer surface holes. 20,000 manhours. Placed back in commission 1-9-73. Currently located at Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio, according to Boeing. Contradicting this information, authors Dorr & Peacock, in an appendix, state that 56-0589 was “ultimately disposed to ground instruction at Sheppard, Texas.”

To complicate the issue of the two notes above, Dorr & Peacock state that the aircraft now on display at Wright-Patterson is B-52B no. 53-0394. However, to the casual observer of B-52 models, the plane on display is certainly not 53-0394 (as stated by Dorr), because it has the large wingtip fuel tanks common to the B-52 “D” model, not the small ones characteristic of a B-52 “B” model. Now that you’re really confused, the sign located at the B-52 at Wright-Patterson states words to the effect, “...suffered battle damage over Vietnam, exhibiting over 400 holes...” This description matches the Boeing Maintenance records for 56-0589...yet the number 53-0665 is currently painted on the side. I’m confused...are you? We need a volunteer B-52 history buff to visit the cockpit, look on the back of the door, and find out the real number.

D 56-0604 11-5-72 Landed at U-Tapao. 333 external damage areas. Using horizontal stabilizer from 55-097. Estimated time in commission (ETIC) 2-1-73.

D 55-0052 11-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Approx 20 holes. Repairable by T.O. 1B-52B-3. In commission 1-9-73.

D 56-0678 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. No inspar damage. ETIC 7-30-73. Est. 60,000 manhours. 350 external holes; 24 areas require kits. Lilac 03.

D 56-0583 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Returned to service 12-20-72 minus three repairs 53 manhours. 10 external holes plus several dents and gouges.

D 56-0592 12-18-72 Landed at NamPhong, Thailand; one time flight to U-Tapao 12-23-72. ETIC 3-15-73. External holes estimated 2,000 manhours.

G 58-0254 12-18-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. Sheet metal damage top of fuselage 30 to 50 holes. Minus three repairs.

D 55-0067 12-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Minus three repairs. In commission 1-9-73. 70 manhours. Nineteen external holes. Call sign “Brick 2”.

D 55-0051 12-24-72 Landed at U-Tapao. In commission 1-9-73. 226 manhours. Eleven external holes.

D 55-0062 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. “Dash 3” repairs. Returned to service 12-27-72. Cream 1.

D 55-0090 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. “Dash 3” repairs. Returned to service 12-28-72. Cream 2.

D 56-0629 12-26-72. Landed at U-Tapao. Black 03 B-52D. TOT 1609Z Duc Noi 37,000 MSL. Returned to service 12-31-72. 63 manhours to repair fourteen external holes plus three dents.

D 55-0052 1-8-73 Second incident. Landed at U-Tapao. Approx. 45 holes.

D 55-0116 1-14-73 Landed at Danang. Over 200 holes. Left wing section 21 needs replacing. Left drop tank numerous holes. Removed both; being salvaged 4-1-73. (According to one source there was not enough time before the cease-fire to salvage the aircraft so it was scraped).

D 55-0058 1-14-73 Landed at U-Tapao. Took hits from 2 of 6 SA-2s
fired just prior to drop. More hits from 1 of 3 more SAMs on exit. Over 120 holes. Geoff Engels, a/c commander, Gunner, Jack Attebury, C/P Ernie Perrow, NAV Mike Gjede, EW "Torch" Torsiello, RN (Unknown).

Note: Source of aircraft data…Boeing maintenance records. Note that Boeing records show 19 aircraft were lost in combat…but that has to be in error. Nos. G 58-0216 (19 Dec 72) and G 57-6472 (20 Dec 72), shown as downed in combat, later flew in the 1980s. The correct total number of B52s lost in combat must be 17. However, eight additional B-52s were operational losses while enroute to a combat area. Total Vietnam B52 loses: 25.

Tail Gunner Note: B52-D serial no. 55-083, “Diamond Lil,” is now on display at the USAFA. The plaque at the aircraft states that that aircraft was one of two B52s to shoot down an enemy MIG during the Vietnam conflict. The date of the confirmed MiG 21 kill is recorded as December 24, 1972. Tailgunner Moore of the 307SW. A second B-52D got a confirmed kill: 56-676 got a MiG 21 kill 18 Dec 72. Tailgunner Turner of the 307SW. Present location of 56-676 unknown.

--------------------------------------

Number of active SA-75MK Dvina batteries around Hanoi:
18 - 9
19 - 10
20 - 10
21 - 9
22 - 9
26 - 13
27 - 12
28 - 11
29 - 8

On nine occasions, the SAM units received hits (in 8 cases from bombs, 1 case from Shrike [73.battery]).
It disabled 5 battery temporarily, and one [73.battery] finally.

Destroyed:
1pcs PAA cabin (hit by Shrike, copletely destroyed)
The 73. battery was illuminating the target for 80s, when their PAA was hit by Shrike.

Damaged:
3pcs PA-11/12 antenna
1pcs RPK antenna
5pcs DES-75 diesel generator
9pcs launchers
15pcs missiles
1pcs ATS-59 tractor
cabling at 3 battalions


Against B52, they launched 244 missile, on 135 occasions*.
Against other planes, they launched 55 missiles, on 34 occasions*.
*Hanoi and Haiphong




An F-100F, the two-seat version of the old frontline fighter, is leading a flight of four F-105D Thunderchiefs streaking behind a ridgeline into North Vietnam on December 22, 1965. The specially equipped F-100 is searching for surface-to-air missile (SAM) sites, to which it will lead the four F-105s. It had been only seven months since U.S. pilots had begun to fall to this dangerous weapon. As the hunters head into the SAM's lair, they aren't sure whether they will find it or it will find them.
In mid July, the first Thud Weasels arrived at Takhli Air Base in Thailand. The air war was heating up at an incredible pace, and within six weeks, five Weasels had been lost and the sixth was too badly damaged to fly again. Operation over the north reached a long bloody plateau from late 1966 through early 1968. In 1967 alone, 26 Wild Weasel aircraft and 42 crew members--the equivalent of an entire squadron--were shot down. The losses prompted a reexamination of whether Weasel operations should be continued at all.
Often it didn't matter if the air crews knew where the SAMs were coming from--there were too many to effectively track. "Somewhere along the way, someone convinced the NVA to fire the SAMs in threes, and that is what they would do," Wilson says. "So, here comes three from one side, three from another, three from behind, and they are all pointed at you. It made for tough decisions." Some air crews witnessed a further step taken in the electronic gamesmanship: simulated SAM launches. "We used to joke about the Russian technician teaching the NVA and saying, "See that big formation right there on the scope? Well, watch this,' " says Bill Sparks, a former F-105 pilot. "He would hit the button, and the formation would look like the world's biggest bomb burst as everyone jettisoned their loads and went crazy looking for a launch. Kinda funny, really."
Despite the heavy toll on Wild Weasel crews in Vietnam, losses of all types of aircraft to SAMs began to decrease in 1967. In addition, by late 1966 components from the original Wild Weasel equipment were being installed in many aircraft types, which provided the pilots of non-Weasel aircraft some measure of radar detection and enhanced their existing ECM equipment. The F-105 and the technology developed for its use had finally begun to pay off and turn the tables somewhat against the dreaded Fan Song and SAM.

Last edited by piston79; 02/02/13 03:19 PM.
#3871140 - 12/03/13 08:10 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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#3873316 - 12/08/13 01:26 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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#3873372 - 12/08/13 04:15 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hanoi, 26.12.1972 631 zrdn (?) - GIA LAM

#3908187 - 02/06/14 08:59 PM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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apelles Offline
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Hungary, Székesfehérvár
What can be known about S-60 effectiveness in vietnam? It's a killer weapon or more like a harassing tool?
It's connected to AA guns above 100mm?
It's manual avaliable in english or hungarian?

#3908391 - 02/07/14 07:41 AM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: apelles]  
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AAA Killed more US aircraft over Vietnam than SAMs MiGs or small arms. But the North Vietnamese had lots of types of AAA, and I don't know what was shot down by the S-60, and what wasn't.

#3922513 - 03/10/14 07:16 AM Re: PAVN missile units [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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