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#3204475 - 02/10/11 09:02 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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2005AD Offline
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Polls asking if the devs should devote time to anything remotely linked to SP, on a forum where the majority are biased towards MP, are only going to turn out one way. They are hardly going to say "ooh dynamic campaign for me please". It's like going on to a Manchester United forum and asking "who's best, Man Utd or Liverpool" smile

Oleg himself has stated that only 5% of people who purchased IL2 go online, he also stated years ago that if his sims were to be MP only he would have to charge a monthly subscription to make money. Or maybe you think the few hundred people who fly on hyperlobby represent the majority? I hope for the future of flightsims that they don't, or our future looks bleak in the sim world. Let me put it another way, two of the most financially successful simualtions ever released have little MP to speak of and not a single bullet gets fired in anger. Their names consist of two letters and a number... and IL2 ain't one of em smile

The truth is that Oleg simply cannot afford to abandon SP and he knows it. At least a QMB and scripted missions mean SP is catered for somewhat in CoD. I do hope a dynamic campaing is released at some stage, because in scripted "campaigns" (and I use the term loosly) it doesn't matter that half of your squadron died in the last engagement, as long as you complete the mission you progress. The very next mission you get a full squadron of anonymous AI with skill levels predetermined by the mission designer. With a dynamic campaign the same result means your squadron is at a much reduced strength for subsequent missions, or at best you get green replacements who are not up to the job. The net result of both scenarios is an increased chance of the enemy winning air superiority in your sector. Which in turn means enemy bombers get through easier to destroy your infrastructure/ground units etc, thus further reducing your ability to fight.

In scripted missions it doesn't matter if you fail the mission, just refly until you get it right. Fail in a mission in a dynamic campaign and the enemy grows in strength while you get weaker. In a scripted campaign if you fail to stop the bombing raid on your airfield you have to keep doing the mission until you do. In a dynamic campaign the same failure may result in your squadron being moved to another airfield further away from the action. This means you have to fly longer to intercept the enemy and when you do you have a much reduced loiter time.

Fly off the assigned course in a scripted campaign and you get nothing but empty map. Do the same in a dynamic campaign and you stumble accross events not linked to your mission. Keep failing your missions in a scripted campaign and it has no consquences, your success or failure in a dynamic campaign does have consquences. It is for this reason that scripted 'campaigns' always feel sterile and lack immersion, there simply is nothing going on that hasn't been designed to happen explicitly with you the player in mind. Nothing you do has consequences beyond the current mission. I am not saying you directly impact the course of the war depending on your success or failure, but at least in a dynamic campain your actions do have consequences beyond the current 'chapter'.

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#3204476 - 02/10/11 09:02 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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I'm an offliner...so Campaign...

#3204481 - 02/10/11 09:05 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: FearlessFrog]  
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Originally Posted By: FearlessFrog
Originally Posted By: FozzyBear
The game is still going to have 128 players, right?


Unconfirmed but possible, might be dialed back a bit if it kills performance I guess, i.e.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=190275&postcount=317

Oh, and as for the topic- Weather, I plan to use SP to get better at MP, rather than expect it to be something I buy the sim for.


#%&*$#, 128 plans in the air is pretty damn dynamic to me.

#3204495 - 02/10/11 09:14 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: FozzyBear]  
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2005AD Offline
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Originally Posted By: FozzyBear
#%&*$#, 128 plans in the air is pretty damn dynamic to me.


Yeah, one pilot in a Hurricane watching 126 Spitfires chasing the 109 he damaged around in cricles 100ft off the ground. Constantly shouting in the chat bar "leave him alone ya kill stealing b@$t@rd$" smile

#3204517 - 02/10/11 09:32 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Dynamic campaign. By a few light years.


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#3204523 - 02/10/11 09:35 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: 2005AD]  
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
Polls asking if the devs should devote time to anything remotely linked to SP, on a forum where the majority are biased towards MP, are only going to turn out one way. They are hardly going to say "ooh dynamic campaign for me please". It's like going on to a Manchester United forum and asking "who's best, Man Utd or Liverpool" smile

Oleg himself has stated that only 5% of people who purchased IL2 go online, he also stated years ago that if his sims were to be MP only he would have to charge a monthly subscription to make money. Or maybe you think the few hundred people who fly on hyperlobby represent the majority? I hope for the future of flightsims that they don't, or our future looks bleak in the sim world. Let me put it another way, two of the most financially successful simualtions ever released have little MP to speak of and not a single bullet gets fired in anger. Their names consist of two letters and a number... and IL2 ain't one of em smile

The truth is that Oleg simply cannot afford to abandon SP and he knows it. At least a QMB and scripted missions mean SP is catered for somewhat in CoD. I do hope a dynamic campaing is released at some stage, because in scripted "campaigns" (and I use the term loosly) it doesn't matter that half of your squadron died in the last engagement, as long as you complete the mission you progress. The very next mission you get a full squadron of anonymous AI with skill levels predetermined by the mission designer. With a dynamic campaign the same result means your squadron is at a much reduced strength for subsequent missions, or at best you get green replacements who are not up to the job. The net result of both scenarios is an increased chance of the enemy winning air superiority in your sector. Which in turn means enemy bombers get through easier to destroy your infrastructure/ground units etc, thus further reducing your ability to fight.

In scripted missions it doesn't matter if you fail the mission, just refly until you get it right. Fail in a mission in a dynamic campaign and the enemy grows in strength while you get weaker. In a scripted campaign if you fail to stop the bombing raid on your airfield you have to keep doing the mission until you do. In a dynamic campaign the same failure may result in your squadron being moved to another airfield further away from the action. This means you have to fly longer to intercept the enemy and when you do you have a much reduced loiter time.

Fly off the assigned course in a scripted campaign and you get nothing but empty map. Do the same in a dynamic campaign and you stumble accross events not linked to your mission. Keep failing your missions in a scripted campaign and it has no consquences, your success or failure in a dynamic campaign does have consquences. It is for this reason that scripted 'campaigns' always feel sterile and lack immersion, there simply is nothing going on that hasn't been designed to happen explicitly with you the player in mind. Nothing you do has consequences beyond the current mission. I am not saying you directly impact the course of the war depending on your success or failure, but at least in a dynamic campain your actions do have consequences beyond the current 'chapter'.


This ^. In spades.


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#3204532 - 02/10/11 09:42 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Flight model, Damage model, Avionics, Graphics.

For IL2 I don't really see dynamic weather a top priority. Dynamic campaign only in the long term but only if it was like in BOB II since 99% of the time I fly online not important to me.

#3204808 - 02/11/11 03:40 AM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Dynamic Campaign.

I almost never fly online, and user created missions/campaigns are just for practice . . .

Dynamic Weather is generally going to be pretty meaningless, especially considering the combat radius of most BoB fighers. While exceptions occured, most of the time the weather is not going to change that signicantly in the 45 to 120 minutes a figher interceptor or escort may have been airborne.

#3204844 - 02/11/11 04:42 AM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Weather definitely - it is harder to code.

Of course, I know that Oleg will have supports in place for DCG APIs - so a dynamic campaign is basically guaranteed by his approach.

#3204905 - 02/11/11 06:54 AM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: 2005AD]  
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
Polls asking if the devs should devote time to anything remotely linked to SP, on a forum where the majority are biased towards MP, are only going to turn out one way. They are hardly going to say "ooh dynamic campaign for me please". It's like going on to a Manchester United forum and asking "who's best, Man Utd or Liverpool" smile

Oleg himself has stated that only 5% of people who purchased IL2 go online, he also stated years ago that if his sims were to be MP only he would have to charge a monthly subscription to make money. Or maybe you think the few hundred people who fly on hyperlobby represent the majority? I hope for the future of flightsims that they don't, or our future looks bleak in the sim world. Let me put it another way, two of the most financially successful simualtions ever released have little MP to speak of and not a single bullet gets fired in anger. Their names consist of two letters and a number... and IL2 ain't one of em smile

The truth is that Oleg simply cannot afford to abandon SP and he knows it. At least a QMB and scripted missions mean SP is catered for somewhat in CoD. I do hope a dynamic campaing is released at some stage, because in scripted "campaigns" (and I use the term loosly) it doesn't matter that half of your squadron died in the last engagement, as long as you complete the mission you progress. The very next mission you get a full squadron of anonymous AI with skill levels predetermined by the mission designer. With a dynamic campaign the same result means your squadron is at a much reduced strength for subsequent missions, or at best you get green replacements who are not up to the job. The net result of both scenarios is an increased chance of the enemy winning air superiority in your sector. Which in turn means enemy bombers get through easier to destroy your infrastructure/ground units etc, thus further reducing your ability to fight.

In scripted missions it doesn't matter if you fail the mission, just refly until you get it right. Fail in a mission in a dynamic campaign and the enemy grows in strength while you get weaker. In a scripted campaign if you fail to stop the bombing raid on your airfield you have to keep doing the mission until you do. In a dynamic campaign the same failure may result in your squadron being moved to another airfield further away from the action. This means you have to fly longer to intercept the enemy and when you do you have a much reduced loiter time.

Fly off the assigned course in a scripted campaign and you get nothing but empty map. Do the same in a dynamic campaign and you stumble accross events not linked to your mission. Keep failing your missions in a scripted campaign and it has no consquences, your success or failure in a dynamic campaign does have consquences. It is for this reason that scripted 'campaigns' always feel sterile and lack immersion, there simply is nothing going on that hasn't been designed to happen explicitly with you the player in mind. Nothing you do has consequences beyond the current mission. I am not saying you directly impact the course of the war depending on your success or failure, but at least in a dynamic campain your actions do have consequences beyond the current 'chapter'.


While i agree with this a lot, i would be happy either way. The way i see it, scripted campaigns are like being the main character in a wartime novel while dynamic ones are about the above quote.

What i'm going to do is spend some time getting to know the ins and outs, learning all the new stuff and maybe flying some MP, that will hopefully fill my time nicely until either of the two features is ready. I'm mostly an offliner with recurring bouts of online flying, so while i don't actually divide my time equally i usually have cases where i might fly online for two months and then only offline for the next three.

In that sense, both features are equally important to me but there's also another reason that i can't differentiate between the two.
Weather on its own is not terribly important as it is (unless we get a German pre-war training campaign with gliders, i'd love to see that at some point) for the reasons mentioned above: limited ranges and short sortie durations in BoB. However it will be an awesome feature within the context of a dynamic campaign (offline or online) in future add-ons with longer mission times.

Imagine having a 24/7 DF server scenario where a campaign engine tracks not only amount of available pilots and airframes like it currently happens in IL2, but also the rates at which they are replenished. Now imagine that the airframe counter is not one generic number but they are divided according to types. Imagine this goes for other things too like fuel, ammunition and so on. Those pesky 110s from Erpro.210 came in low and torched the airfield's fuel tanks? Well, next mission you might have to start with only half a tank of gas in your Hurricane, things like that.

In such an environment, making the right sorties against the right targets will be of paramount importance and it might also bring the people who like Falcon4/BoB:WoV style campaigns into MP. For SP i wouldn't fly a BoB:WoV campaign where i plan every sortie as i prefer to take the role of a simple pilot (i have no problem if it's optional so others can make use of it however), but in MP it would be fun having all kinds of people and delegating tasks or simply making missions up as we go.

If we had some plotting tools on the pre-mission interface and the ingame map, day/night cycles on the servers, smart AI crewmen with support for user-made scripts and the ability to schedule long-haul flights as AI and then jump in and take control it would be an unprecedented experience. Want to raid a far away target? Set some Lancasters to depart at such and such time under AI control, each player chooses 2-3 bombers (for redundancy in case his chosen ride gets shot down along the way before he can join in) as his "own", you come home from work while they are still on the way and with the proper timing you can join the server, enter a password and find yourself in the pilot's seat already halfway to the target. Want to fly all the way back? You can. Give control back to the AI after leaving the target and flying something else? You can too.

Now that's what i'd call a campaign engine, one that doesn't distinguish between MP and SP but is usable for both, just broad enough that you can tailor it to specific needs by toggling the appropriate options. For instance, i wouldn't fly an offline career with the ability to jump into an AI aircraft mid-flight (actually you can already do this in CoD, as shown in last Friday's update on Luthier's video), but it's a real time saver for bomber flights in MP if we want realistic map distances, fuel and load-out considerations.

The reason i don't mind the delay is Luthier's comments about how much work he's put in designing the dynamic campaign engine. He said he came up with a few hundred pages of documents dealing exclusively with the design of it all, he wants it to be worthy of the rest of the sim instead of a string of random missions a la IL2 and it's going to take another year to do properly, so i'm hoping he's got something like the one i described in mind.


Within all of that, imagine (finally) how important the weather would be in such a gameplay setting. Heck, whenever i wouldn't be in the mood for some fighter action i'd probably be spending my time in the muck hunting U-boats and battling rainstorms in a slow-ass catalina along the western approaches for 3-4 hours, or flying anti-shipping patrols in Ju88s, Beaufighters and Mossies and best of all, it would actually have a tangible bearing on winning the online campaign for my team biggrin

#3204951 - 02/11/11 10:51 AM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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I wonder...

we could have static campaign missions ( hand crafted mission as opposed to computer generated ones ) but it could still take into account the life of your squadron and some enemies around you. ( If one enemy squadron is decimated, it is replaced by another..). If your squadron is decimated, it is replaced also by something else to help you.

Everything is possible with programming smile


Last edited by Nikko; 02/11/11 01:12 PM.
#3205034 - 02/11/11 01:19 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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This reminds me of DiD's Total Air War, first they release the game with just ten lousy scripted missions with the promise of the dynamic campaign being released as an add-on later. But what they actually did was release it as a full game and back-stab those who had already bought the previous game with ten lousy scripted missions. Hope Ubi doesn't pull that stunt on us.


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#3205142 - 02/11/11 04:01 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: mutt]  
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Neither are terribly important to me, flying 100% online. Once you've fought against real people it's hard to get excited about flying against a processor thread - it just isn't very exciting.

Only 5% of people fly online... I can believe that, though I think in the few months after release the percentage will be much higher before the casual get bored. However, has there ever been a poll that asks what percentage of people continue to play the game after spending 10-30 hours in the 'scripted' campaign? I'd imagine it's pretty low.

I'm an avid computer gamer, and have been since the Commodore 64 days. I played the original Doom the week it came out on my hideously expensive 486-66. I *just* retired my TM RCS pedals that I've owned since 1996... bought them to play the original Descent, along with the FCS and WCS. In all that time... nearly 30 years of PC gaming, and hundreds of games (I think Frogger on my Sinclair ZX-81 was the first), I can count on the fingers of one hand the games I've played past the 'main story' or primary set of missions. In the 90's it was Quake 2 and 3, with thousands of hours in high-end competitive play. In the aught's it's been IL2 and Team Fortress 2. That's it. My Steam list has over 150 games, and my physical box shelf dozens more. I've enjoyed them all, but when the story is done it's done. How many of the thousands that buy Cliffs of Dover are going to play past the 20 hours or so (PIDOMA estimate there)? We know 5% will go online. How many will download and play a Dynamic campaign generator when it's inevitably released? How many will download the many, many excellent player made scripted campaigns that will flood out in the months after release?

I'm betting it's more than online, but still a SMALL portion of the customer base.

I'll play the campaign even though I haven't played a scripted IL2 campaign since I bought it nearly a decade ago. I want to experience the history of the Battle of Britain. There's no place for dynamism in that battle. If a flight of Bf-110s were over the channel at 10 AM on a sunny July 10th morning, they damn sure better be there in the game!


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#3205196 - 02/11/11 04:48 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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admittedly, I'm really looking forward to the online action in this game, but i still will play the SP. a lot of it at first. I'm sure I'll check out whatever campaign, and if they do release, or someone develops a dynamic campaign, I'm sure I'll try it too. But to me, MP is what makes games last. Like said above, I too have hundreds of games. Most of which i played, and put away. I don't resent them, and I don't feel like I'm entitled to a decade worth of entertainment for the cost of a decent lunch. To me, when a game has a great MP, I play them a lot longer, and they can be one of the greatest entertainment values ever. Hell i still play a little IL2 online, or at least did until a few month ago when i built a new computer.

As far as the 5% figure that go online, I think that is way low. It may have been right 10 yrs ago. But in today's world, where MP is such a big part of gaming, it's got to be more. Just look at the internet advancements. 10 years ago, people still had dial up. This is a different world now, where almost everyone has an internet connection capable of playing online games. I'm not saying that everyone will play online, (although I hope they do) but i think you'll be surprised how many people join the fun. MP in il2 was so great and diverse, i can only imagine how this one will be. And just think how neat it would be to have a regular DF server that every time you enter, has different weather. To me that would be cool. To me, the dynamic weather just sounds so interesting with variable wind speeds, direction, changing cloud cover, moving bands of rain. I think it's more worthwhile to spend time on it. Maybe they will never be able to do either, but i'm still buying the game day one.


So, would a dynamic campaign be cool too? yes, of course, but only if it was done well and like some described here. Most of the dynamic campaigns I have seen have been pretty bad, which i why i think well made user campaigns and mission have always been so much better. Anyway, the point is, there is something for everyone. If you guys that do not go online play thru the static campaigns and are not satisfied, well, sorry for that. I've bought lots of game that didn't spark my fancy. It happens, it's pc gaming. Anytime you buy one, there is that risk. But I think looking at the history of il2, you wont be disappointed. In the end, it's just a pc game, cheap entertainment software. Why some here feel this entitlement to some perfect, billion dollar military simulator for the cost of a date to the cinema is beyond reason. I mean i understand it in some teenage shooter forum, but i thought us flight simmers were a bit more seasoned, as it were.

Last edited by Slingn; 02/11/11 04:51 PM.
#3205295 - 02/11/11 06:20 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Dynamic weather, optimized so everyone can run it. Dynamic campaign will need this weather as well so do the weather first then follow with DC.


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#3205840 - 02/12/11 08:46 AM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Something in between - dynamic release.


'Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant.'

Manfred von Richtofen
---------------------------



#3206033 - 02/12/11 04:55 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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mutt Offline
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Well, if dynamic campaigns are not so important to some of you why don't you own Wings of Prey? It has everything else going for it, it's the arcade campaign system that stops me from enjoying it.


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#3206843 - 02/13/11 06:55 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Blackdog, you don't have to take a commanders role in BoB2. You keep mistaking the game for only allowing this job. one can easily fly as a single pilot and let the campaign run its course.


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We cannot shoot, we can not fight, nor march like infantry.
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#3207448 - 02/14/11 02:50 PM Re: What’s more important, dynamic weather, or dynamic campaign? [Re: Slingn]  
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Dynamic Campaign by far. Dynamic Campaign is what we've been waiting for all these years.

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