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#3204917 - 02/11/11 07:51 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Ok, I give up. I'm sure someone else can refine my basic idea into a more robust AAR system. For now my basic idea is a line graph showing the flight of the missile(s), and a reverse line graph showing the targets flight. There could be some kind of magnified graph showing the missiles flight in a 10 km proximity to the target so you could see where the missile exploded in relation to the target. The upper graph in this: http://www.ausairpower.net/S-200VE-Engagement-Envelope-F.pdf could possibly be used as an underlay.

Example:


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh

Last edited by NaiseFail; 02/11/11 07:53 AM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3205030 - 02/11/11 01:14 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh
I understand your point, but if you read this on the simulator mainpage:
This is rather a system simulator, not a game.
The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement.

Think about it: SAM operators didn't had a good idea of the engagement. They didn't have a perfect 3D graphic showing the position of their target and their missiles in a timeline to study their own eficiency...

Ok, i know... "But it's not real, it's virtual simulator..." But i think that, knowing the simulator isn't a remunerated project, we can't expect this features for a near future.
Combining the plotting screen with the current AAR system looks very good and acceptable IMHO.
I liked the idea of getting a plotting table with the updates on altitude and position of detected targets and the hits, together with the current AAR, in the end of the battle.
I think that's a good and doable idea.

Last edited by Redcoalition; 02/11/11 01:15 PM.
#3205077 - 02/11/11 02:16 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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AntiTank Offline
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They sure can look out of the cabin door.

#3205084 - 02/11/11 02:34 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: AntiTank]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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If the target is more than 30km distant, they can look outside, but they can't see anything wink
Only way of confirm kill is take a jeep and try to reach the crash site.

#3205089 - 02/11/11 02:53 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh
I understand your point, but if you read this on the simulator mainpage:
This is rather a system simulator, not a game.
The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement.

Think about it: SAM operators didn't had a good idea of the engagement. They didn't have a perfect 3D graphic showing the position of their target and their missiles in a timeline to study their own eficiency...

Ok, i know... "But it's not real, it's virtual simulator..." But i think that, knowing the simulator isn't a remunerated project, we can't expect this features for a near future.
Combining the plotting screen with the current AAR system looks very good and acceptable IMHO.
I liked the idea of getting a plotting table with the updates on altitude and position of detected targets and the hits, together with the current AAR, in the end of the battle.
I think that's a good and doable idea.


Well, as you said, it's a PC sim. Further, it's a PC sim meant to be played by casual people, and casual people like to know what the result of their actions are. Personally, I think even a high end military simulator would give very detailed AARs. It's good to understand what exactly happened so we can learn from our mistakes, and repeat our successes. I'd like to see more engagement information simply because I like to see all of the fine details.

I'd love to see this sim grow much larger than it currently is. NASA terrain, more systems, massive USSR vs NATO air war scenarios, multiplayer with the ability for several people to operate the same system, and broader system simulation. I'd like to see full system simulations to the point where I actually have to test SA-5 missiles before they're fueled and loaded. This would of course be possible in huge scenarios where you've managed to fire all of your ready missiles. Not to mention the commanders display shown earlier in this thread would have a use in multiplayer.

However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

yep

#3205110 - 02/11/11 03:28 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

Dear All,

Currently Im studying the graphics hardware acceleration programing.
yep

On the first release, the idea was that we just give the same info, that a real SAM battery commander has, to help understanding that the battery commander may never know, if he really killed his target.
(thus controversial killed enemy numbers are born)

As the game advances, AAR was implemented, and giving much more info, a real FCO ever dreamed of.

But players like it, so it was a great idea.

3D AAR is another fancy feature, truly unrealistic, but might be enjoyed buy the users, so it is written and noted.

I would like to do it right, as the other part of the sim (no corners cut) so I envision a 3D digital (NASA) map with the actions are overdrawn as colored curves.

Br,
Hpasp


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3205113 - 02/11/11 03:32 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Only way of confirm kill is take a jeep and try to reach the crash site.

And if the crash site is at enemy territory, you might have never be able to prove...
... just check the middle mark on Col. Zoltan Dani's S-125M Neva (SA-3B) cabin door.

Only the first and the third are fell within his country.



Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3205117 - 02/11/11 03:39 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: AntiTank]  
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Hpasp Offline
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They sure can look out of the cabin door.

Cabin door is locked during firing, as the light would blind the eyes of the operators.

In the dark, they could see more detail on the scopes, just like the submariners...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3205190 - 02/11/11 04:42 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

yep

No doubt that a asking and participating community is a major key factor for the development of every sim.
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
I understand, but the vietnamese knew that what they were trying to shoot down was, in fact, the recon plane SR-71?! I mean, was the information of Blackbirds flying over North Vietnam air space in their hands?

They had to document each shootings...
...just check this doc:
http://narod.ru/disk/19940925000/%D0%A175%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%20%20SR71.djvu.html

In which positions did the soviet experts operated on Dvina batteries?!
i.e: Battery commander, fire officer, tracking operator, etc.

Every one of those

Many thanks once again, very useful info!

Last edited by Redcoalition; 02/11/11 07:57 PM.
#3205859 - 02/12/11 09:44 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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boog2006 Offline
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Hpasp,

The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

As far as having a 3D environment is concerned, I have a compromise proposal. The user base (that's us) could make short avi files from their favorite air sims (LOMAC series, Falcon4.0, Third Wire series, etc.) of different SAM hits and misses, etc. on different aircraft types. Then we could submit these to you and all you would have to do is play a small movie clip at an appropriate time in SAM sim. I think this would be enough to give a sense of "action" for the gammers out there and would be a good chance for others to contribute too. I think something could be worked out. This is SimHQ, after all. yep

#3205866 - 02/12/11 10:09 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: boog2006]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Originally Posted By: boog2006
Hpasp,

The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

As far as having a 3D environment is concerned, I have a compromise proposal. The user base (that's us) could make short avi files from their favorite air sims (LOMAC series, Falcon4.0, Third Wire series, etc.) of different SAM hits and misses, etc. on different aircraft types. Then we could submit these to you and all you would have to do is play a small movie clip at an appropriate time in SAM sim. I think this would be enough to give a sense of "action" for the gammers out there and would be a good chance for others to contribute too. I think something could be worked out. This is SimHQ, after all. yep

The only problem with this method is it doesn't provide any information that you don't already know. I, for one, would much rather have a 3D simulation of events than a short video clip. The underlying idea is to provide you with an analysis of the events in a pretty to look at format. The option to play this would be presented to you in the AAR, thus providing a "fog of war" in situations where you're not be able to stay on-air long enough to confirm a kill.

Two questions for Hpasp:

1. Have you ever played Falcon 4.0? Your AAR idea sounds exactly like F4s ACMI. :p
2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?

#3205882 - 02/12/11 11:40 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?

Just raw data:

time - range - speed
3s - 1km - 3Mach
50s - 65km - 6.4Mach
100s - 140km - 4.3Mach
150s - 195km - 3.2Mach
200s - 235km - 2.8Mach
220s - 255km - 2.6Mach


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3205904 - 02/12/11 12:40 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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I would prefer an 3D AAR than a video collection of hits. Simply because it is impossible to cover all situations present in the simulator and most of these simulators do not include half of the systems present in the SAM Simulator.

Also, the simulation of SAM in these simulators is a bit different ... It takes a direct hit to lead the aircraft to the ground. I never saw a 50m explosion down a aircraft on Flamming Cliffs 2 or Black Shark...

If so I would prefer a 3D AAR. But i don't think this as a priority. I would be satisfied with a 3D AAR in a distant future.
Smile2

#3205942 - 02/12/11 01:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Lieste Online sigh
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Lieste  Online Sigh
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If you need to fill voids in mountainous regions or 'go' north of 60N, then look at viewfinderpanoramas.org
The data quality isn't quite as good (there tends to be more 'terracing' in the terrain in flat areas (1m height though, so little real impact)).

Remember that in these areas BUA and vegetation can have a significant effect on LOS and noise. Not sure how this would be handled though.

#3206076 - 02/12/11 06:23 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: boog2006]  
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Hpasp Offline
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The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

Real SAM action usually taken place in the Mediterranean.
yep


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3206645 - 02/13/11 02:48 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?

Just raw data:

time - range - speed
3s - 1km - 3Mach
50s - 65km - 6.4Mach
100s - 140km - 4.3Mach
150s - 195km - 3.2Mach
200s - 235km - 2.8Mach
220s - 255km - 2.6Mach

Thanks. I'm planning to eventually put some of the important info together with some of the engagement graphs, etc. and print them out for use as posters. I guess I'll have to try to convert that into one of the fancy looking graphs sometime.

One more question/suggestion, would you enable non-historical scenarios for the SA-5 until more scenarios are made for it? While the SA-5 would reign free in the other scenarios and make them extremely easy, it would provide more stuff to shoot at. The SR-71 scenarios are only fun for so long, and the same is true for Asuluk targets. This is assuming that this would be easy/fast to do, of course.

#3206904 - 02/13/11 08:19 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Silver_Dragon Offline
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Arafo, Canary Islands, Spain
Other insteresting addoon can be folow ZSU-23-4 series (Far Far Away):

Sa-6 Division Air Defense SAM
9S19 Radar
9P25 Launcher
Transloader
Ammo Carrier
Sa-8 Regiment Air Defense SAM
Radar vehicle
Sa-8 laucher
Sa-8 Transloader/ammo carrier
Sa-9/13 Battalion Air Defense SAM


More News to the Front
#3207501 - 02/14/11 03:59 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Brazil
One question. The soviet test site on the simulator is "Asuluk". But on google i couldn't find any sources for this site.
Instead, looks like the "Ашулук" translation is Ashuluk. I found many sources talking about this site...

Why is that?!

#3207540 - 02/14/11 04:46 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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AntiTank Offline
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Found some great videos about C-125

http://www.youtube.com/user/petschora2a#g/u

#3207553 - 02/14/11 05:06 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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One question. The soviet test site on the simulator is "Asuluk". But on google i couldn't find any sources for this site.
Instead, looks like the translation is Ashuluk.


It is always questionable, how the Cyril letters are translated...
... "X" (Cyril - H) is certainly not there.



They are still practicing...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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