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#3180079 - 01/15/11 06:50 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day ***** [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Would you mind providing their titles, please? Thanks! Smile2

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3180110 - 01/15/11 10:25 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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I mean, several full bookshelf.
thumbsup
My latest interest is in the OAF ('99 Serbia) campaign, so the latest additions are...

General Spasoje Smiljanits: Agressija NATO (Serbian & Cyril)
Bojan B. Dimitrijevic, Jovica Draganic: Vazdusni Rat Nad Srbijom 1999. Godine (Serbian & Latin)
Benjamin S. Lamberth (RAND): NATO's AirWar for Kosovo

... these are highly recommended about the '99 events.



Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3180111 - 01/15/11 10:28 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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About Vietnam, this Russian title is one of the best:




Last edited by Hpasp; 01/15/11 10:30 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3180478 - 01/15/11 10:35 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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I assume the picture is from Vazduni rat nad Srbijom 1999 godine? It looks very interesting. Any idea why the 3. rd PVO did not use optics as 8. rd did, even though three point guidance was employed anyway? confused

Too bad that book is not available on the internet.


I looked around for that title about Vietnam. Unfortunately, the vko.ru archives are down, so it was impossible to download. The internet archive only has one of the chapters,
http://web.archive.org/web/20080622163639/old.vko.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2005.21.26, but with no pictures.

Please post a copy if you've got one!

#3180495 - 01/15/11 10:55 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Any idea why the 3. rd PVO did not use optics as 8. rd did, even though three point guidance was employed anyway?

TV is not effective during night.
During night combat, even if you find the target, when you launch, the missile exhaust is blinding the camera, so you loose your target.
yep

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/15/11 10:56 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3180612 - 01/16/11 02:19 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Any idea why the 3. rd PVO did not use optics as 8. rd did, even though three point guidance was employed anyway?

TV is not effective during night.
During night combat, even if you find the target, when you launch, the missile exhaust is blinding the camera, so you loose your target.
yep

According to the graphic, both engagements were at night. The 8. rd used a thermal camera, evidently. Does the book offer any other details?

#3180759 - 01/16/11 09:06 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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This book, describe several detailed engagements, to be added to the SAMsim.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3180791 - 01/16/11 10:53 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Very nice, looking forward to them.

#3181758 - 01/17/11 07:50 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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New You Tube tutorial videos are available from Matthew Barry, for the SA-4 system.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3181836 - 01/17/11 08:54 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Screens of the upcoming system after the Vega...
... they might be a bit familiar for you.
yep





At the right...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3181930 - 01/17/11 11:04 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Dvina! bump Do you see any challenges with Dvina development having the Wolkhov already more or less complete? Does it differ in anything other than stripping Volkhov of some of its options? (I mean the game, not the system...)

One about manual tracking (in fact, those guys occupy the most of the room!). Does the real auto-tracking in S-75 and S-125 have the capabilities you modelled in the game? Or you "assume" the presence of ideally trained manual trackers that help the player? Where are the limits?

#3182018 - 01/18/11 12:57 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hmm, I like the looks of the Dvina more than the Volkhov.

I always wanted to ask you, but never remembered. I noticed that almost every switch on the Volkhov works, but most of them aren't described in the manual. Do they have a function, or did you just make them click-able for the hell of it? :p

#3182195 - 01/18/11 09:28 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hmm, I like the looks of the Dvina more than the Volkhov.

Dvina is much more cleaner, and easier to use (according to FCO's who used both), than the overcomplicated and ergonomics disaster Volhov.
The most stupid difference is that the "Fire" button is exchanged place with the "Cancel Fire" buttons.
dizzy

I always wanted to ask you, but never remembered. I noticed that almost every switch on the Volkhov works, but most of them aren't described in the manual. Do they have a function, or did you just make them click-able for the hell of it? :p

90% has real effect, so be cautious clicking around.
Maybe in the far future, I create and "Advanced" Volhov manual about those. (another 50+ pages)
I just not wanted to scare potential users with the first modeled system, having a 100+ pages manual.
biggrin


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3182198 - 01/18/11 09:51 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Dvina! bump Do you see any challenges with Dvina development having the Wolkhov already more or less complete? Does it differ in anything other than stripping Volkhov of some of its options? (I mean the game, not the system...)

The graphic, and the manual should be completely redone.
The 11D missile is less agile, and the SNR is much weaker.
I do not see big challenges, so probably it could also be done this year.

One about manual tracking (in fact, those guys occupy the most of the room!). Does the real auto-tracking in S-75 and S-125 have the capabilities you modelled in the game? Or you "assume" the presence of ideally trained manual trackers that help the player? Where are the limits?

Against non jamming target, the auto-track has good capabilities in the real system.
When the target can be seen under the jamming, or it is tracked by the TV, than manual tracking come into play.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3182972 - 01/19/11 05:02 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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Another question for you.

I have been reading some of the documents from the website you supplied earlier, for the S-125 (thank you again for posting that wonderful site). The technical reports on the 5V27, in particular, are fascinating. Yet, there is clearly not enough information for a full six degrees of freedom simulation of the missile. Although they at least provide centers of gravity under various conditions, no aerodynamics data is given. Nor is there other detailed data such as motor thrust curves or autopilot gains and the like (although I suppose one could try to analyze the circuit schematics cool) in any of the books.

Of course, I am interested in the details of your simulation from a dynamics perspective. My guess is that such data (i.e. beyond the general level encountered in the documentation mentioned above) was probably not widely disseminated. Thus, for the simulation, some simplifications would have to be made.

Previously, references were made to specific quantities like integration time steps and missile acceleration limits. Additionally, the program seems to produce reasonable miss distance figures. While aerospace engineering is not my specialty, the model does not look too simple...

The question is, what was your approach to the physical simulation of missile flight?

Cheers. smile

Last edited by PLCC; 01/19/11 05:41 AM.
#3182987 - 01/19/11 06:00 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Vegas
Installed Sam-sim on my main system and I'm still having problem with resolution. I really would love to play it, but it seems impossible. Neither laptop or main system....

#3183032 - 01/19/11 09:22 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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I can gladly state, that this program simulates missile behavior much closely than you think.
(atmosphere, g forces on control surfaces, acceleration, overheating, ...)
Around 50 dynamic parameters are used to simulate each missile.

The manual states the barely minimum only to be able to use the sim.
Each system, there are ~1000 pages of Hungarian manuals I used to get it as close as I could.
wave2

Some info about the V601P




by the way, I sent you mail...

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/19/11 10:11 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3183183 - 01/19/11 02:48 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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That is a beautiful thrust diagram! reading

No wonder the Soviets had to use the "pear" to adjust the nozzle cross-section.

It's unusual, though, that both the booster and sustainer motor curves are relatively flat. The former apparently has fourteen exposed rods with single circular channels (easy to see how a roughly constant area of combustion is maintained), while the latter is quite unusual.

My interpretation is that the length of the grain containing the "cut-outs" (#2) has a large initial burning area, to compensate for the fact that the central channel has yet to expand much right at the start of operation. During the burn, the area of that part declines, while the area of the channel increases, roughly maintaining flat thrust. If so, that's a fairly clever solution, and one which likely was less expensive to manufacture compared to the typical "star-shaped" channel associated with flat thrust in textbooks.

Does that sound about right?

#3183809 - 01/20/11 04:51 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
I can gladly state, that this program simulates missile behavior much closely than you think.
(atmosphere, g forces on control surfaces, acceleration, overheating, ...)
Around 50 dynamic parameters are used to simulate each missile.

It sounds like you have a model of pretty decent fidelity, then.

Of course, quantities like missile acceleration (G) limits are well-known and documented. But less trivial information such as lift and drag coefficients for the body, wings, and control surfaces, or even the aforementioned autopilot gains may not be so easily available.

Did your materials actually provide most of these parameters, or did you make engineering guesses yourself?


Last edited by PLCC; 01/20/11 04:55 AM.
#3184752 - 01/21/11 08:16 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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autopilot gains may not be so easily available.

Nono, I not modeled autopilot gain, as it is not necessary.
In the manuals there are several charts that were digitized and the program grabs data from those, and at the end, the missile is behaving pretty close as it is described there.

For example:
describing missile range against time


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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