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#3172898 - 01/06/11 01:11 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day ***** [Re: vintorez]  
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One on Neva: did you attempt to simulate failed launches (as they inevitable happen)? It often appears when using a missile from launcher no. 2. Missile disappears from the "readiness" light but is not caught by tracking antenna. Under failed launch I also understand the failure to "catch" a correctly (in a kinematic sense) flying missile.

Hmmm, can you describe how can it be recreated?
If the missile cannot be caught by the UV-12 antenna after launch within few sec, the missile is lost.

And on Krug: how about reloading? In Ashuluk transloaders are available, but no corresponding switches in the manual

Reloading of the KRUG takes so long time, that it is not simulated.

1) to get the guy launch one you must directly illuminate him (no matter whether tracking or not). OK, but if an ARM homes on sidelobes (to simplify a bit), you should expect receiving an ARM at much greater angles (above 180 deg. from LOS, I suppose) as soon as you transmit. To have a practical picture - the guy launches an ARM only when you see it. smile I do not have problem with transmitting most of my time at Hanoi - and surviving.

In Vietnam only the Shrike/Standard ARM is simulated.
They are not capturing side-lobes.
The HARM will be another thing...
yep


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3173043 - 01/06/11 04:09 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

It is a bug.
I will be corrected for the next release.

More specifically.
Debris should not be seen, if high voltage is off.

The missiles should be seen, as they carry a beacon, that answers to the guidance signals sent by the P16 antenna on the RSN-75V3 (Fan Song E).


Cool, thanks!

Would the missile "splashes" look different with transmitter off?
Now they look like a point with a horizontal line. Is the line the actual "splash" and the point - the answer from beacon maybe?

By the way, many thanks for the sim! Never had so much fun from a simulation!

Last edited by AntiTank; 01/07/11 12:13 AM.
#3173669 - 01/07/11 05:28 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Fire control radars can also track it (with their huge power output in small area of the sky), but first they should know, where to look for it.
Might not be well known, that with the SA3B fire control radar (SNR-125M1 Low Blow), even an eagle (bird) could be auto-tracked...
yep


That quite surprising Hpasp, but I guess it depends on the range to the bird. If the Eagle lands on the transmitter it would present a huge contact, but would be roasted within a few seconds I presume biggrin


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3173691 - 01/07/11 06:20 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: vintorez]  
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2) A guy can launch an ARM while jamming at the same time. Peter Skarus wrote the jamming should be switched off before launching an ARM in order for the seeker to lock on SNR and not to be ruined by own jammer (using the same frequency!). Could you comment on that?

That is not true.
nope

I just checked it again with an ex F-4G Wild Weasel driver...

"Operation of the jamming pod has no effect on Shrike operation. We normally flew with the pod in standby and didn't jam unless we were defensive. The pod did interfere somewhat when it was jamming, but the pods position would have sent it's very directional signals away from the Shrike seeker head."


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3173743 - 01/07/11 09:07 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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I've been wondering, why doesn't the SA-4 integrate with IADS? I realize that if it's employed on the move it might not have access to the IADS, but how're you supposed to know what you're shooting at without IADS? I've successfully engaged several Migs and SUs in some of the scenarios due to not knowing what's friendly and what's hostile, lol.

Also, how does the SA-4 engage jamming targets? Does it have some form of home-on-jam? I remember needing to use IADS to get the targets altitude in order to successfully engage jamming targets with the SA-2, and yet the SA-4 doesn't seem to require this information?

#3173756 - 01/07/11 10:01 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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I've been wondering, why doesn't the SA-4 integrate with IADS? I realize that if it's employed on the move it might not have access to the IADS, but how're you supposed to know what you're shooting at without IADS?

There are some different Air Defense organizations at the eastern style SAM troops.

IADS is used by the PVO (Air Defense of the Homeland) forces.
They had fixed location Radio Technical Troops in the country (usually one unit at every 50km) to feed the data into the system.
PVO is used the SA-1/2/3/5/10 systems during the Cold War.

PVO-SV (Air Defense of the Troops) as an offensive organization, are planned to operate away from the Homeland...
(Hungarian troops were planned to be employed in Austria, Germany, and Italy.)
... thus they were out of the range of the PVO's Radio Technical Troops.
So PVO-SV brought the 1S12 with them and it provided the situational awareness.
PVO-SV is used the SA-4/6/8/12 systems during the Cold War.

I've successfully engaged several Migs and SUs in some of the scenarios due to not knowing what's friendly and what's hostile, lol.

Congratulation, of getting familiar to the KRUG!
The KUB (SA6) SAM is also using the 1S12 for target acquisition, and during the middle east wars, the Arab PVO-SV forces scored several friendlies also...

Also, how does the SA-4 engage jamming targets? Does it have some form of home-on-jam? I remember needing to use IADS to get the targets altitude in order to successfully engage jamming targets with the SA-2, and yet the SA-4 doesn't seem to require this information?

Similar way, as the Neva (SA3).
It use the T/T guidance method, and arm the missiles fuse right after the launch.

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/07/11 10:05 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3173764 - 01/07/11 10:28 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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I see, thanks.

Another question, is it currently possible to engage targets with the SA-5? I could swear the first time I played with it I got the top row of red lights to illuminate, and then the lower sets lit up. I'm assuming the top row is for the missile gyro, while the lower are the assorted missile indicator lights? I can't seem to reproduce this tho. Looking forward to seeing the SA-5 finished and learning to employ it! If it's as much fun as the SA-4 I don't know how I'll ever decide which to use. :p

#3173864 - 01/07/11 02:38 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Another question, is it currently possible to engage targets with the SA-5

Not with the current version.
nope

Looking forward to seeing the SA-5 finished and learning to employ it! If it's as much fun as the SA-4 I don't know how I'll ever decide which to use. :p

It will be much more fun, I promise.
biggrin




Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3173961 - 01/07/11 04:44 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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You probably already know about these two bugs, but I figure they're worth mentioning just in case.

1. Sim crashes if you right click the radar switch while it's in the initial "locked" state.
2. Jamming transmissions extend off of the radar screen.

Also, that last picture is beautiful. Couldn't have been taken at a more perfect moment.

#3174000 - 01/07/11 05:25 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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1. Sim crashes if you right click the radar switch while it's in the initial "locked" state.
It is already corrected, and the correction will be in the next release.

2. Jamming transmissions extend off of the radar screen.
That is just an old code. Jamming is not written yet for the Vega.

thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/08/11 10:00 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3176279 - 01/10/11 08:30 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Hpasp, have you considered making a Twitter account for your Sam sim? I'd be nice to know when you release new versions, or someone makes a new video. I'm sure I'm not the only person that checks this thread throughout the day hoping to see a new version, lol.

#3176993 - 01/11/11 06:41 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Good Idea NaiseFail.
If I get Bored I Check.
I would be happy with just a new scenario for the old systems. Not that i have "Mastered" any really. 'Cept maybe the "Habu" . Once the proper procedure was identified. thumbsup

#3177546 - 01/12/11 09:05 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: ShaneRet]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hi,

This sim is really done by one otherwise working guy, in his non existent free-time.
I see very little to be twit about it, but I will try to keep you up to date about the development here.

Now, all the Vega RPC modes are in place (MHI, full/half-FKM, FM, NCTR, Vcr, etc...).
The missiles are preparing up, and can be launched, but not guiding, as the guidance code should have yet to be written.
(It uses completely different guidance methods [proportional, and combined] compared to the earlier systems)

The distant roar of the launched missile (we are sitting in the K2V cabin, that is ~1km from the launchers) is in place.
They are accelerating over Mach3 in 3 sec after launch...
thumbsup

The jamming section is not touched yet, as one of the main task of the Vega was to kill stand off jammers, so it is a bit complicated.
The documentation should yet to be written in English and Hungarian at least.

The next release will contain only Hungary, and Asuluk, to be able to release it earlier, and the system could be practiced.
Only later the "Giant Reach", "Operation Tallin", and "Operation Prairie Fire" will be released.

There will be an additional option tickbox, to be able to use the sim in silent mode.
grunt


Some interesting info about the V-880E missile.
- It is a hypersonic design, reaching 6.5Mach maximum.
- When it is aimed against low targets, it reduces its thrust to limit the heating caused by friction of the dense air, to Mach3.
- It reaches max range () in 3,5 minutes
- max altitude is 40,8km
- max range is 255km (but it is limited by several factors)

Some interesting info about the P14 (Tall King) target acquisition radar.
- It is really tall. (over 10m)
- Max range is 600km
- Its range is limited by the Earth's curvature. (at 600km range, anything below 20km altitude is below the horizon)



Last edited by Hpasp; 01/12/11 09:23 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3177808 - 01/12/11 06:28 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Mar 2007
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NaiseFail Offline
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NaiseFail  Offline
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Virginia
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Hi,

This sim is really done by one otherwise working guy, in his non existent free-time.
I see very little to be twit about it, but I will try to keep you up to date about the development here.

Now, all the Vega RPC modes are in place (MHI, full/half-FKM, FM, NCTR, Vcr, etc...).
The missiles are preparing up, and can be launched, but not guiding, as the guidance code should have yet to be written.
(It uses completely different guidance methods [proportional, and combined] compared to the earlier systems)

The distant roar of the launched missile (we are sitting in the K2V cabin, that is ~1km from the launchers) is in place.
They are accelerating over Mach3 in 3 sec after launch...
thumbsup

The jamming section is not touched yet, as one of the main task of the Vega was to kill stand off jammers, so it is a bit complicated.
The documentation should yet to be written in English and Hungarian at least.

The next release will contain only Hungary, and Asuluk, to be able to release it earlier, and the system could be practiced.
Only later the "Giant Reach", "Operation Tallin", and "Operation Prairie Fire" will be released.

There will be an additional option tickbox, to be able to use the sim in silent mode.
grunt


Some interesting info about the V-880E missile.
- It is a hypersonic design, reaching 6.5Mach maximum.
- When it is aimed against low targets, it reduces its thrust to limit the heating caused by friction of the dense air, to Mach3.
- It reaches max range () in 3,5 minutes
- max altitude is 40,8km
- max range is 255km (but it is limited by several factors)

Some interesting info about the P14 (Tall King) target acquisition radar.
- It is really tall. (over 10m)
- Max range is 600km
- Its range is limited by the Earth's curvature. (at 600km range, anything below 20km altitude is below the horizon)




Sounds like it's coming along nicely. I had no idea that the radar could see THAT far, lol. Will it be possible to use the SA-5 in existing scenarios in the first release? I'd love to introduce myself to some of those Israeli aircraft that always turned around just outside of my SA-4's range. smile

#3178671 - 01/13/11 05:59 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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First of a kind...

Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
8K14 R-300 (SCUD-B) Tactical Ballistic Missile

S-200VE Vega-E


50:40, Practice target 8K14 R-300 (SCUD-B) Tactical Ballistic Missile launched

57:13, Missile exploded
Practice target 8K14 R-300 (SCUD-B) Tactical Ballistic Missile killed by SAM. (miss distance: 52m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 57sec


WinkNGrin


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3179164 - 01/14/11 04:21 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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PLCC  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
This sim is really done by one otherwise working guy, in his non existent free-time.
I see very little to be twit about it, but I will try to keep you up to date about the development here.

Have you considered making it open source?

With community involvement, I think some great things could be achieved. A few ideas for improvement immediately come to mind:

  • User interface. For instance, the mission planner may be expanded to allow for more complex target behavior (more waypoints per target, etc.) and possibly for more scenarios. Another area is input and control for the systems. The 1S12's target selector could certainly benefit from a less awkward manipulation scheme; I've seen Youtube videos where the operators were able to move it and designate targets very rapidly indeed. Keyboard control of various parameters, like the azimuth and elevation of the target tracking antennas would be nice to have. Furthermore, feedback to the user about antenna positions (and of course, other parameters) is important as well.
  • Environment. A basic visual representation of the world would be highly desirable. Even if missiles and targets were represented by little more than vague shapes, actually being able to see the engagement in three dimensions is going to make it significantly more pleasurable. Also, targets could be programmed to take evasive action when engaged.
  • System functionality. Wouldn't features like the S-125's TV tracker be nice to have? Since we're simulating 1970s technology here, I think it's quite feasible to implement a representation of a low resolution, blurry television camera. I mean, it'd be one blob for the target, and a second blob for the missile. Smile2


Some of these objectives are obviously not readily achievable with Visual Basic 6. However, a separate port to a different language probably is unlikely to present excessive problems. The most difficult work -- particularly, data collection and photography -- is already done.

Equally interesting would be a release of some of the documentation you employed to simulate these systems. For all four modeled systems, real documentation simply does not exist on the internet. Notably, there are already technical manuals available for the Osa, Strela-10, Tunguska... It would be absolutely terrific to have these (or any other material) for the S-75, S-125, or S-200. With the systems in question being out of service in Hungary and in other states that had used them, I really cannot imagine any obstacles to such a disclosure. My gratitude (and that of the enthusiast community at large) for the provision of such material could not possibly be overstated.

Anyway, I also wanted to say that your simulator is a great joy to use. I am really looking forward to the full working S-200. Keep up the awesome work. thumbsup

#3179217 - 01/14/11 07:32 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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Equally interesting would be a release of some of the documentation you employed to simulate these systems. For all four modeled systems, real documentation simply does not exist on the internet. Notably, there are already technical manuals available for the Osa, Strela-10, Tunguska... It would be absolutely terrific to have these (or any other material) for the S-75, S-125, or S-200. With the systems in question being out of service in Hungary and in other states that had used them, I really cannot imagine any obstacles to such a disclosure. My gratitude (and that of the enthusiast community at large) for the provision of such material could not possibly be overstated.

Quite a number of manuals are already released on Russian Internet.
for example: http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/

Releasing the manuals I work from (usually several thousand pages per system), would not be a big help for the community, as they are written in Hungarian, and less then 0.1% of the people in the world could read it ...
grunt


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3179403 - 01/14/11 03:07 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: NaiseFail]  
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PLCC Offline
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Wow, that is quite the treasure trove. Thank you!

#3180004 - 01/15/11 03:25 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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PLCC  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Quite a number of manuals are already released on Russian Internet.
for example: http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/

Releasing the manuals I work from (usually several thousand pages per system), would not be a big help for the community, as they are written in Hungarian, and less then 0.1% of the people in the world could read it ...
grunt


I've had the opportunity to review some of the material on that site. It is of tremendous historical value. Many thanks. Do you happen to know of other equally superb "examples" as the one above?

Also, I am curious about the origin of your Russian-language graphs for the S-75 Vietnamese scenarios. Besides the Hungarian literature, have you got any in Russian?

#3180071 - 01/15/11 06:32 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov qualification day [Re: PLCC]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Yes, I have several English, Russian, and recently Serbian books, about air wars, and SAM's.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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