Subtle way of altering the emphasis to make my thread title seem worse that it was meant to be. Thanks a bunch. Maybe you ought to actually read what I post. Mind you, I admire the way that you are able to determine my whole character and attitude from a few words.

Look at the thread. The OP isn't happy with the plane flying, he doesn't know why, it is just a feeling >some poster feel the same...they don't know why but affirm "there's a problem in FM">This is not the case but another problem>the other problem is corrected and the plane won't fly>people are happy yet the FM situation is not clearer for them.

This shows just how much that "wrong feeling" is unrelevant; the only thing that make people happy here is that they will have their H400 crashing just as the wished whatever the real reason;

We would have detected a problem meaning just a general more difficult control people would be half happy; a problem that fixed results in more lift ppl would cry out it is just fantasy FM...

ROF has a bunch of FM bugs that will be corrected; believe me none of their root causes were found by listenning to people saying "this is wrong! i don't know why but this is wrong!"; ALL of them were corrected following precise data about where they thought it was wrong and when people do not have aerodynamics, mechanics , thermodynamics or whatsoever knowledge a cumulation of historical data was provided to show there was a problem; then petrovich started to look at it.

It just how you do for any scientific related problem.

So to sum up that, a person that has some clue (even in general) of something wrong has a "wrong feeling", a person that has a "wrong feeling" doesn't have necessary a clue of what's going on, and the number of people is not a reinforcement (even statistically) of the "wrongness" of the behavior.

Here, everybody was jumping on the FM wagon with facts that were in contradiction with how the FM works and that's why i started posting there yet they continuated jumping onto that; finally a person spotted a valid reason (independant from FM) and everybody is happy...

This is just not how things work when you do sciences related works.

So, I've been away from this sim for many months, and decide to come back and have a look, in the hopes that things have improved.

Then I see this thread.

Anyone defending the airworthiness of the Handley Page in the original post really has no clue.


Perhaps another year of development is in order.

*SIGH*

All people who want *perfection* in life need to see a doctor. All people who want to see *perfection* in a *simulator,* need to see two doctors

Rise of Flight is *excellent*

*lmao* Sums it up nicely, I'd say.

If you aren't flying this sim because of some preconceived notions, you are making a HUGE mistake. I've never flown a sim that makes me actually think I'm really flying as much as this one does. I'm sure there are folks that have more experience than I do in "real" aircraft (8000+hrs) that fly this sim, but I don't really care---I often forget I'm flying a "game"...

BOB is gonna have to be DAMNED GOOD to beat this one! The balls in your court Oleg....

Well put Coptr.

It really doesn't muss my hair that the O/400 is still flying even though I'm in the camp that strongly believes it can't possibly do so. It's in the "that's a funny glitch" category which doesn't affect my enjoyment of it.

To my mind, it doesn't undermine the claim that NeoQB/777's has very advanced FM/DM modeling- it most likely is the result of an unusual bug in the FM/DM modeling of that aircraft or a visual vs. FM/DM disconnect, triggered by unusual set of circumstances. Has anyone been able to reproduce this occurrence?

(self-edited for tone)

This is what depresses me. You know some of the most voracious critics of ROF are people who dont even play it. Ive been playing ROF since day one. No other PC title (let alone sim) has given me more pleasure than ROF.

I dont understand why some people insist that its "broken" "unrealistic" "badly programed" or any other of the terms that get thrown about. Ive spent more time in ROF than any other sim over the last 25 years, and whilst there have been issues, they've been fixed and it continues to improve at an incredible rate.

As a fan of the PC Sim Genre (which in case you havent noticed is a very rare thing these days) it staggers me that people don't applaud what ROF has acheived. Fine if you dont like it your entitled to your opinion, but then why bother going onto a forum dedicated to said sim just to continually say you dont like it?

Its a bit like picketing your local cinema handing out flyers to the waiting queue ranting on about how rubbish the latest harry potter film is! What also gets me is that some of the people havent even bothered to watch the film but are going off others opinions.

Constructive critism is one thing, suggestions, and level headed discussion all great. But to me personally even the title of this thread just shows the lack of respect that some hold for the devs. Whens the last time you sent a letter to bill gates demanding him to sort windows out?

But then again good old bill doesnt take the time to post information and previews on forums. He doesnt enter into conversation and discussion with his customers. The Devs are passionatly commited to making ROF the best it can be. The talent and skills they have are incredible. Many can say "well this is rubbish" but how many have the talent or knowledge to equal or better it?

As I type this I know I'm wasting my time, its been going on since day one. I cant wait for BOB SOW to be released, not because I am looking forward to it (although I am) but mainly because some of the neg-heads might drop ROF and bother Oleg and his chums about how they could make it soooo much better.

OK, see you then!

Hey, Ogami...call Petrovich back and tell him the good news: There's no need to change that problem with the H-P. The resident experts say it's just fine like it is.

After all, we can save ourselves a ton of time and effort spent improving, simply by insisting the emporer's clothes are above improvement just as they are. Things will continue to move along, much quicker, if we all just don't discuss any flaws.

Much better that way.

Why bother going onto a forum dedicated to said sim just to continually say you dont like it? Well, unfortunately, it's necessary sometimes to be persistent. Take this thread for example: you do see the amount of resistance to change in what should have been fairly a straightforward outcome...don't you? Maybe not. Either way, the ones it seems to bother most are the ones who just blindly insist everything's fine.

(And, just to keep the record straight: There is - at least - one other sim that has a very responsive Dev team. They, too, have put remarkable skill and effort into producing a truly fantastic product. They are also limited in what they can do - just like this thread indicates above is also the case with RoF, though the limitations the respective teams face are different. Whether you care for the other sim or not, they've done as remarkable a job, all things considered. By a good many accounts, they've done better).

I'm very sorry but i strongly think you missed my point.

But that's not so big; the H400 will be corrected.

Squid, please accept my apologies if my thread title did not reflect what I was aiming to say. There was no disrespect intended; on reflection perhaps I could have chosen my words better.

Ogami_Musashi, please accept my apologies for flying off the handle at you. However, to a stranger reading your posts you do tend to come across this way. And I find your conviction that that an 'ordinary' RoF player (i.e one who doesn't know who Petrovich is) could not possibly have anything to contribute to an FM/DM discussion rather bizarre.

KnowBreaks, I apologise for starting this subject and leading you to having to bang your head against a brick wall.

To everyone else I apologise for awakening Freycinet once more. His vitriolic attacks have been absent since the great DRM slanging match of a year ago. (I didn't earn one then - I finally feel like I belong!)

I do not apologise to anyone for discovering something in this fine sim that was not quite right, and that was easily fixed.

Over and Out.

Sorry Dunkers you didnt deserve me having a pop at you, but sometimes the tone of the odd post freaks me out a bit.

Ogami - I offer you, sir, my sincere apology. My comments were not directed at you; they were satirical and intended to illustrate a point. As I wrote previously, you were willing to listen (and I'm sure it's not easy). The fact that you did listen is among the reasons a flaw was found and corrected. I am grateful to you for that, even if we do not necessarily agree on the path which lead to the solution.

Dunkers - please, my good man; no apology necessary. First of all, you aren't the "brick wall". Also, I am the one who decides for myself to 'bang my head' I am firmly committed that, without the input of folks like yourself, RoF would be hindered rather than improve. Even if they'll never admit it, this community owes you a debt of gratitude.

I shot down three HP400's last night and two of the three came down kinda "funny". Two had engines eventually blow up which took off all of the wing section except for the upper center. The planes came down kinda like they were under a parachute with one of the crews actually surviving the impact. Does that bother me---not a lick!!!

I'm absolutely positive that there aren't any folks here who believe that the ROF guys don't realize that there are "issues" with the HP and they're working feverishly to "fix" it. I'd also be willing to bet that there are folks there who didn't want to release the bird yet but because of all the #%&*$# and moaning about a new aircraft-relented and said "what the hell, Merry Christmas". I'm sure we all have encountered the mystical "mono-wing" DR1 that still VERY RARELY appears. When the sim first came out it seemed as if a kill shot to the pilot or an engine fire were the only ways to shoot it down because if it had ANY wing left attached, it kept flying! I'm not seeing that problem now.

Just checked my stats in the sim and I have "logged" over 100 hours of "flight time" in missions and downed more than 1000 airplanes and I STILL can't go more than two or three days without getting my "fix". Even after all of this "flight time" in ROF, I'm constantly amazed with my experiences "in-cockpit". The awesome flight dynamics(for the most part!), the damage modeling, the fantastic detail of the planes, vehicles, terrain, etc., and the clouds, yeah, the clouds. I've busted through the edges and centers of real clouds for the last 30 plus years (mostly in aircraft that you have to fly as they won't fly themselves) and I'm STILL amazed at how realistic the experience is in ROF.

Is the game perfect? Naaah, but it beats the crap out of any other flight sim I own for realism, enjoyment and well, hell-the beauty of the scenery and the enjoyment of just flying these old crates around and enjoying the French countryside.

Oh, just one question-who are the other Devs that were referred to in an earlier post? Just curious.

Your impression on me of arrongance is right; i know i sound like that; that's why i said nothing on your post.

This is not because i'm beta tester that i think any superiority. In fact while the beta tester state with 777 is one of the most enjoyable one (because we are involved in the general process which means the team doesn't see us as a battery of bug hunter but more as supporters) most of the thing i know are not because i'm a beta tester but because i know some people at 777 since several years even before Gennadich team/neoqb went on business.

Thus there's no superiority air to have, as i said some things were said here that are wrong, and they are wrong because I know the way it works so things like a visual DM not being a physical DM is impossible.

Those are real facts that do not say "look stupid guys! i know better than you" but simply provide information that the argument put foward is/are not valid; This did not close any discussion at all as you've seen someone pointed correctly at the problem.

And here is the transition to my point, this is not that a "normal" user can't help, this is in the way you do. Not everybody helping 777 has Phd in sciences but all helped in having a rigourous approach.

A simple example: People complained about the Camel left spin behavior saying "that is stupid! you don't recover from a spin with aft stick!"....except that the left spin in ROF is a flat spin and that you do recover from a flat spin (when you can) with aft stick. Everybody laughed until one real pilot confirmed that he did recover from flat/deep spin behavior that way.

When we discussed it on the beta forums, some users just had become beta testers and laughed when i asked them to provide a track of the stall so that we analyse; None of them had seen that they were into a flat spin..
We discussed with petrovich and we saw where was the problem which is more like that the plane should not necessarily enter that flat spin;

So you see that without being rigourous and just listenning to general complains you start tweaking you FM to conform to their will of exiting the spin with forward pressure (which inevitably put several other flying conditions into the non realistic field) while in fact the spin behavior is correct and that is the stall-spin transition that needs some rework.


So there's no "user" vs "beta tester" thing, it is just a matter of being able to point at precise points where you think it is wrong; you ask and the dev team answer his opinion; If you start yelling "that is wrong feeling!" ..there's no point to start the discussion from.

That's why i asked the bit of "what would you answer to petrovich if he asks you what you think is the problem".

Hope this clears some things.

Good for you that you realised that your bug reporting style sounded disrespectful.

RoF bugs actually get squashed along the way. Some of us are thankful for that and think the development team has earned our respect, while others takes it all for granted and make DEMANDS. I'm glad you're not one of them Dunkers, for a moment it sounded like it.

Nice drive by.


Exactly. He doesn't even have it installed, hasn't flown it since the early releases and thinks the business model is "hair-brained." I think this was less about an honest reconsidering of the state of RoF and more a stirring of the pot. I don't think I'll ever understand why flight sim enthusiasts are so cannibalistic toward their genre.