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#3117638 - 10/18/10 12:43 AM Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica?  
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Madfish Offline
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Salute gents,

I know this forum might be a bit biased (pit builders) when it comes to this topic but eventually it is even the right place to discuss this. so I've been looking at all the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog preview material out there and certainly it is a neat stick of hopefully great quality. However, it is a replica and what came into my mind is that it is actually pretty much flawed due to that principle for everyone who is not building an exact A-10 cockpit.

Here is my logic: What controls do ALL pilots need on a HOTAS aside from Axis and trigger buttons? Well, certainly Gear, Flaps, Trim and a few buttons and switches to change other settings and target acquisition / selection etc. Mostly buttons though as all sims support buttons and some support switches (properly)
We all know that real warbirds have a TON of controls more than what we will get with the TM unit. These original controls (the important ones) have to be partially replaced somehow and that just can't be done with the Warthog unit I believe. Also there are only a very few that own a replica cockpit. I must admit that I hate double function switches a bit. Yes, there are probably ways to set it up so that a button has multiple functions in combination with other buttons but that's really something I cannot get used to.

So I'm looking at the Warthog picture now and I see it has a control switch for flaps with 3 settings: Up, Maneuver and Down (UP/MVR/DN).
That renders it less useful in many planes, useless in some or not? I'm thinking of the whole, popular, WW2 fighter plane era for example and it even continues through the jet-age doesn't it?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71NhAHWQeWL._AA1400_.jpg
How would you map IL-2 flaps to the Warthog for example. Put the flaps on an axis? That means you lose trim. Put them on a button? There aren't many of those around. Use a second switch? Not supported by the game. So there is trouble already.

Second is trim. Yes, you can probably use the one "Incr / Decr" axis for horizontal trim. Aileron trim is rarely needed so that would mean there is still one axis left (I assume) for rudder trim, being the top one "Friction Incr / Decr".
But then again, for prop planes you could've actually used a few more for prop pitch, mixture etc. as well. You get a very elaborate unit but it features only a very limited set of controls. Aside from it not even being much of use for many games (for example heli sims) it could've featured an axis more or two and a few real buttons, not switches only.

Third is, like mentioned, buttons. There are a LOT of switches on this stick and probably all of them can be turned into regular buttons. However, some functions just don't make sense on a button if you want to use this stick in a multitude of games and not just hard core sims like the upcoming A-10. Personally I've enjoyed a lot of space sims for example and I just can't imagine myself using a switch to select "next friendly in the area" or something. Aside from that, even if you can program a switch as a button it still means that you need to trigger something else before you're able to re-trigger that button again. So that's a major setback for many sims out there.


Another thing that I really can't really get to like are the labels. The market out there for A-10 pilots is still probably just 1% of the total market. DCS will change that for a bit but still, there are so many other sims out there, the A-10 is just one of many planes. That means 99% of the Warthog users will probably be looking at useless labels.
Yes, for the A-10 it's freaking awesome but honestly I'm not gonna fly only the A-10 for the next 5+ years or so but that is certainly the period that I expect my new HOTAS system to actually endure all my sins (and sims :P).
I have been looking at the cover plate and while it seems it can be unscrewed it also seems that you're screwed if you do so and not remove the throttle handles first. If they would have made it a two piece I believe you could take it off easily and interchange it with a different plate (maybe even just plastic, created by fans with different labels for another sim or even a transparent layer of plastic with some printed out mask on top as a cover for easier handling). But that seems to be impossible - well, at least it's not a minute act to change the cover it appears.


I was actually really looking forward to the Warthog but after a bit of research it leaves a few questionmarks. Like I said, a HOTAS system that expensive should actually be able to support me in more than one game. We all know the truth: the market out there has close to zero alternatives if you want to buy one and not build one yourself or if you're not into force sensing.
Right now the market is split:
Logitech :
1. Force Feedback, hall sensors for the X and Y axis of the stick.
Saitek:
1. No FF Pressure sensing stick for X and Y axis.
2. Classic pots
Thrustmaster:
1. No FF, hall sensors for the all axes
2. Classic pots
CH
1. No FF, classic pots

As for rudders there are:
Logitech :
1. comes with the g940, classic resistor pots
Saitek
1. eventually hall effect on the combat rudders
2. classical resistor pots
CH
1. classic pots, very narrow

Of course there are always custom builds like pressure modded sticks, hall effect and also rudder sets like simped etc.
But my point here is that if you're not into the (very expensive) custom market or the self-build fraction that voids warranty just to mod a stick or rudder you are only having the options above.

So if you're looking for new unit with hall effect but without FF and movable stick design then you're stuck with the Warthog. If you're into pressure sensing you're stuck with the X65f and if you're into FF you're stuck with the g940.

Now, I belong to the first group. I do like a bit of rumble but I hate the noise and the added mess when flying the plane. If FF would be really advanced I'd probably jump on it but I experienced it and it wasn't "real" enough for me (force wise and feeling). Racing wheels do a better job there I believe but that is only my personal opinion, please don't take offense from it.

Right now I still use a X36f stick and X35T throttle unit, USB. It's not the best quality but it has so many features and axis put on that unit in such an ergonomic way... You can see what that leads to right? :P I'd be a potential Warthog candidate but I hesitate to jump on a stick that might give me ergonomic trouble.


So what do you guys think about it? This is NOT a personal thread about my own hardware choice. Mostly I'm interested in your opinions of a generic stick vs. a replica. The Warthog is probably great quality but what about ergonomic handling? Was it the right decision for Thrustmaster to make a replica or should they have designed a real ergonomic stick for the consumers, us, to fly almost any sim with?

~S~
PS: If I find anything interesting coming up or if you point out flaws in my post I will edit the first post if necessary.
[edit]changed warthog axes to all hall sensors - thanks teej

Replica or generic design - is the new Thrustmaster stick inheriting flaws due to being a replica?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 10/18/10 12:39 AM
Last edited by Madfish; 10/18/10 01:35 AM.
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#3117649 - 10/18/10 01:03 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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gmohr Offline
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Im a bit confused... on the labels topic, why cant you just ignore the labels when flying a different sim/plane? This seems like a non-issue.

Also, when in a different sim, you can easily map any of the multitide of not-applicable buttons to common things like gear, flaps, etc.

It seems to me that this HOTAS is perfect for any other sim. In fact, I'd be more worried about DCS A-10 itself! Why? Well because all of those numerous functions are already spoken for in the A-10. That leaves some notable functions left off, such as the gear handle. In DCS, I guess I'll just be clicking or using a hotkey. Also, there's probably no left-over buttons for things like trackIR pause/center, and those are really important... not sure what to do about them yet...

-George


"The defense dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid..."

System: i5 2500K @ 4.7, AMD 6950 (unlocked), HP ZR30w, TM Hotas Warthog
#3117658 - 10/18/10 01:23 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: gmohr]  
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Madfish Offline
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The TM Warthog does have some controls that are not compatible with anything else than an A-10. The flaps switch for example. And you cannot simply map that somewhere else - where? To buttons? Which buttons? To an axis? That means you lose trim. The only way out would maybe be to use another switch for landing flaps - but how would you make that work in a sim like IL-2 for example?

Also it does have axis but not enough of them to actually make a secondary set of controls unnecessary (porp pitch, mixture etc.). Also it does have a huge number of switches but only a few games actually support switch states. Yes, all the hardcore sims do but not the rest.
Even amongst hardcore sims you quickly run into trouble. Just think of DCS Blackshark.

In other words: for an A-10 and eventually some other jet fighters the TM Warthog is great. But was it really for the best to make it a replica? It certainly has other impressive features (all metal, sturdy, hall sensors etc) but it's, that is my impression, just not generic enough to be well used in for example WW2 sims, space sims or chopper sims like Blackshark.

So yes, personally I would have loved it if they would have made the stick even better even if that meant to get rid of the replica style. For example more axis (I love the dial knobs on the Saitek throttle units) or trim wheels like the g940 has etc. More buttons would also have been welcome.

And of course you can ignore the labels. But since maybe 1% of the market resolves around the A-10 that means 99% of the people will have to ignore labels - so why put them there in the first place? smile

#3117662 - 10/18/10 01:26 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Teej Offline
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The Warthog has Halls on _ALL_ axes.

Stick X/Y
Throttle 1/2
Incr/Decr (slider where the real plane has the throttle friction)
Microstick X/Y

There's buttons and controls out the yinyang that you could map to trim, at least in incr/decr form. If you're flying a single engine prop plane, you could use the second throttle as a prop pitch or mixture adjustment.

There's 5 "buttons" on the stick itself (Paddle, Pinky, CMS-push, Pickle & NWS) plus 4 hats
The throttle unit has 5 button events also. 2 on the base (Autopilot & LG wrn silence), 1 on the left throttle, plus the push functions of the microstick and mic switch....plus 2 more hats.

All of those buttons (or hats) can have 6 different functions assigned in the same way as was possible with the Cougar - you can have one switch set up as a 3 way mode ( /U /M /D in Cougar syntax) or you can give up one button (usually the pinky) and double the /u/m/d functionality with a /i/o functionality.

If you need more...there's plenty of other options out there for adding more buttons and axes. The MFDs make a great button add on - giving you 56 new buttons for about 56 bucks.

And guess what...Use 'em with a Warthog and the new software, and you can have up to 6 functions on each of those buttons, too (with the /IOUMD functionality above). That's 336 buttons for $56. Not shabby.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
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#3117663 - 10/18/10 01:31 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Teej Offline
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Originally Posted By: Madfish
The TM Warthog does have some controls that are not compatible with anything else than an A-10. The flaps switch for example. And you cannot simply map that somewhere else - where? To buttons? Which buttons? To an axis? That means you lose trim. The only way out would maybe be to use another switch for landing flaps - but how would you make that work in a sim like IL-2 for example?


I dunno how IL2 does flaps, but you could easily set up the Warthog so that (just as an example here) the middle 'MVR' position is not used. When you click it to 'DN' it sends a keystroke for the next notch of down flaps. Move it to 'UP' and it sends for 1 less notch. Not as nice for that since it doesn't self center...but...what did you expect them to put out, an 8-way flaps switch? There's an awful lot of flexibility here.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster
#3117671 - 10/18/10 01:51 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Madfish Offline
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Teej, being a virtual thunderbirds member sponsored by thrustmaster I'm sure you are an expert on your field and eventually you have had a good bit of experience with the warthog already as well. Thanks for the correction on hall sensors for all axes by the way.

However, I must say I was never too good with really crazy control setups. I do like quality hardware but I do not intend to get a pilot license for every plane I fly. That means I'm open to a ton of games, and sims, and prefer control patterns that stay in place. If I'm using a flaps mechanism I want it to work like that in all the games for example. Same goes for most target acquisition features etc.

What you mention as a solution for IL-2 flaps is not really practical I believe. The way I understand it I would have to flip the switch down 2 times, then up one time for neutral, then down again or up when I want to put the flaps to up or take off again and the procedure repeats. In other words: putting landing flaps would mean: down, up, down, up, down - retracting them fast after the landing would mean an extremely fast clicking of up, down, up, down, up, down again. That is ridiculous. :p

Undoubtedly the Warthog is KING for the people who specialize in the plane. No excuses there. However, my point and poll was about wouldn't it have been better for MOST of us if the warthog wasn't just a simple replica but a design that was based on the needs of simming in general, not just copied from one single plane.

I'm very sure the Warthog is extremely flexible but unless I use a flex and cut it into pieces it's still just a copy of the A-10 and not a general purpose stick. So for everyone who's not flying an A-10 it could have been better.
For example you mention to program different functions for each button - something I don't really like. If you don't practice a great deal you will be prone to erratic control usage and sometimes it's just uncomfortable and slow. Sure, again, if you play with one type of aircraft only and have a disciplined procedure you will probably be okay with it. But it's not as simple as the G940 where you can just make a little label yourself and put it on a backlit switch. That's just far more ergonomic AND you can still program different functions. Also microstick switches are a real pain to me. I dislike to use them because I always feel that I will end up moving the stick around by accident.

In other words: yes, the Warthog allows what other sticks allow as well but it's not as ergonomic while doing precisely the same.

Also, I won't get any MFD's because I'm experimenting with HUD systems, in other words a screen right in front of my face. It's much more immersive but it reduces your ability to look around in a home build cockpit and locate thousands of buttons. That's why I'd prefer a good interface that allows me to know where is what instead of searching for it all the time. :P


So yes, I do agree with you - for the A-10 and some other jet's it's probably THE best stick around. But it's not very practical in a generic environment I believe.

But I'm always open to new statements made. In fact I wanted to get the Warthog but lately I had a few doubts.


To be honest with you I wonder why they have to make a replica in the first place. Especially because it means that it will only fit a very limited scenario perfectly.

#3117680 - 10/18/10 02:04 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Teej Offline
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My guess? They made a replica because that's the niche they've carved out. For many years it was the F-16 controls (FLCS/TQS, then Cougar). Well, the F-16 is getting a bit long in the tooth. The future is in planes like the F-22 and F-35 which (I believe) have controls similar to the A-10...given that the A-10C's controls were developed from the F-16 stick and F-15 throttle quadrant.

I can see your point though. Especially in regards to the convoluted control setups. Always had to be careful on those myself.

People have long raised issues about TM support, and I certainly can't say they've been wrong...but I'm a little gunshy on Logitech stuff at the moment. To make a long story short, I bought a clearchat wireless headset. It took 3 rounds of customer service and RMAs and about 4 months before I finally had one that worked.



Last edited by Teej; 10/18/10 02:13 AM.

#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
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#3117767 - 10/18/10 06:33 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Teej]  
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Cali Offline
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Originally Posted By: Teej
Well, the F-16 is getting a bit long in the tooth.


You ought to slap yourself for say this!


i5-2500k @ 3.3, Asus P8Z77-V LE mobo Windows 7 64-bit, 8GB 1866mhz
EVGA GTX 670 FTW 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, Warthog, uber modded Cougar, TM Cougar MFD's, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard


#3117835 - 10/18/10 12:28 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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I think that the problem here is one of expectations. Correct me if I am wrong, madfish, but to restate your overall concern it seems that you are looking for a general HOTAS that can be configurable for a broad variety of applications with little to no intervention on the part of the user. In much the same way that the Warthog can be plugged into DCS:A-10 and have all it's various functions mapped accurately, you would like something a little more generic.

Given that, I think that can be achieved with the Warthog (ignoring the labels on the stick/throttle) in the same manner as with every other HOTAS system out there - customized profiles. Honestly, its the one thing that can be the bane/saviour of each HOTAS system (CH Products, Saitek, Thrustaster, etc). I remember when DCS:Black Shark came out and I stressed over how I was going to map what I needed to fly the bird with the requirements/technical availabilty of the HOTAS system I had (at the time, CH Products).

In that case I could have hoped for a generic congifuration to my physical HOTAS but, honesty, that's a design decision that ever HOTAS manufacturer has to make. Each company starts somewhere and tried to balance the needs/requirements of it's users - an impossible task.

You _can_ achieve this with the Warthog, though it's configuration software in the same way that you can for any other HOTAS system. Thrustmaster just has a different starting point.


Fridge
----------
Things which do you no good in aviation:
1) Altitude above you;
2) Runway behind you;
3) Fuel in the truck;
4) The airspeed you don't have.
#3117863 - 10/18/10 01:32 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Disclaimer
I am bias. I own an Thrustmaster Cougar with an Evenstrain mod and HAL sensors on all axis.
I bought it when it hit the marked.
Before that I had a Thrustmaster F22 & TQS modified with one of Bob Churchs digital chipsets which was a replacement for a Suncom Raptor.


Background
Now that this said there are some other thing you need know.
I have been flying Sim since 1987, where joystic buttons where hardcoded in the sims and all you had was the keyboard and I cannot count the number of times I have been killedd becourse I had to look at the keyboard.

I have always been passionate about my simming and I have flown:
[*]Falcon 4
[*] Apache
[*] Longbow 1 & 2
[*] EECH
[*] MS Combat Flight Simulator 2
[*] I-2 Series
[*] Falcon 4 AF
[*] Blackshark
and a few more planes from games that are not even flightsims.

Design choice
But flying a lot of different aircrafts have never compelled med to buy a generic stick. It is important to me that my stick resembles somthing that could be in a real combat aircraft.


Labels
In theory the Cougar can handle around 168 different keystrokes (some people would probably say I understate ;-)), not including some sofisticated logical programming.
Without counting I will guess that I use over 80 different keypresses on my Cougar. The preprinted labels help while I program my stick but after a while I don't even look at my stick. The choice of keystroke for a button gets testet again and again and only if it feels natural it remains in the evolution of my game file. I try to stick to the abbrivation HOTAS - Hands On Throttle And Stick.


Immersion
It can be argued that the Cougar (F16 stick) can prevent a hardcore simmer from getting the Immersion if flies anything other than a F16, but so does a generic stick.
In the search for immersion the choice between force feedback, Non-moving or ordenary technology will ultimately come down to what list of priorities the the induvidual simmer have. Priorities like: money, number of axis, buttons, axis, look, materials, programming software, gimbals, sensors, and so on.

The reason why I stuck with the Cougar even though the original gimbals where as #%&*$# as can be where the programming feature. The brilliant grafical application (programmin suite "Foxy") by James Hallows. Good programming features can compensate for a #%&*$# game controls.
If you have never own a TM F22, TM Cougar, Suncom or a CH you can not imagine the level of flexibilty.
(don't know if Saitek X-65X have such flexibility though).
My excuse for not letting the look influence on my immersion are my lack of finances (= money).


Your presentation
When I started reading your post I got the thought that you where inviting to a flamewar. The combination of the headline and the lack of posts made me think here are a guy that works at the competitor that wants to muddle Thrustmasters presentation of a new stick. But reading though your posts I doubt that it would be true.

Sim pilots buy sticks for many different reasons. I thing most of us tends to abstract or compensate for the features we don't like. The TM Warthog have a very low WAF factor since it is expensice as hell, big, and does not have anominous clean lines.
It is a very masculin and very uncompromising piece of equipment


Will we EVER get a real Rainbow Six game again. One for the real Tactic fans? A WWII sim with a dynamic campagn. Games with deept?
#3117903 - 10/18/10 02:53 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: gmohr]  
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Originally Posted By: gmohr
It seems to me that this HOTAS is perfect for any other sim. In fact, I'd be more worried about DCS A-10 itself! Why? Well because all of those numerous functions are already spoken for in the A-10. That leaves some notable functions left off, such as the gear handle. In DCS, I guess I'll just be clicking or using a hotkey. Also, there's probably no left-over buttons for things like trackIR pause/center, and those are really important... not sure what to do about them yet...


Don't forget the grey slider on the throttle base could be mapped as a 'gear lever'. Not an issue IMO as in the real aircraft you don't have a gear lever on the throttle base, you have to <gasp> take your hand off the HOTAS and (horrors!!!) reach for a separate control! The pinky paddle switch could be used as a shift button to open up other features like TrackIR control.

Originally Posted By: Madfish
What you mention as a solution for IL-2 flaps is not really practical I believe. The way I understand it I would have to flip the switch down 2 times, then up one time for neutral, then down again or up when I want to put the flaps to up or take off again and the procedure repeats. In other words: putting landing flaps would mean: down, up, down, up, down - retracting them fast after the landing would mean an extremely fast clicking of up, down, up, down, up, down again. That is ridiculous. :p


Yes it is. So don't program it that way. Program it so if the flap switch is out of the neutral/OFF position longer than say, 1 second, the flap up or down command will be repeated as long as the switch is placed to UP or DOWN. The TARGET software should allow something like that, Foxy did for the Cougar. You just need a bit of imagination. The flap lever as it is only has 3 settings due to it's design but lots of aircraft have a flap switch like that, from early Cessna 150s to the P-51 to the F-86. How to program those positions is left to the user.

I agree with most of what you're saying, in fact I questioned TM's choices in this post:

HERE

and

HERE

As for ergonomics, you'll have to ask an A-10C driver...



Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3117905 - 10/18/10 03:00 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Originally Posted By: Madfish
What you mention as a solution for IL-2 flaps is not really practical I believe. The way I understand it I would have to flip the switch down 2 times, then up one time for neutral, then down again or up when I want to put the flaps to up or take off again and the procedure repeats. In other words: putting landing flaps would mean: down, up, down, up, down - retracting them fast after the landing would mean an extremely fast clicking of up, down, up, down, up, down again. That is ridiculous. :p
Yeah, that's a bit ridiculous. But one of your main concerns is the lack of buttons (not switches) on the throttle. You are forgetting that the throttle has multiple HATs - these are in, in effect, 4 buttons built into a single control.

Program a throttle HAT so that when you move it up it sends a flap command, and when you move it down it send another flap command. The HAT returns to center when you release pressure. Problem solved.

#3117927 - 10/18/10 03:33 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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I figured the T.A.R.G.E.T software would let me make semi complex macros. A quick Press Hold Autorepeat statement (/P/H/A) or a Press Release Repeat statement. (/P /R /RPT(5) ) Tada flaps problem solved. I used the auto repeat on the Cougar for the Wildcat gear. No reason You couldn't use TARGET to do the same for the Warthog.


"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you Screw with me, I'll kill you all!!"
Marine General James Mattis
#3117968 - 10/18/10 04:34 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Teej Offline
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Originally Posted By: Madfish

What you mention as a solution for IL-2 flaps is not really practical I believe. The way I understand it I would have to flip the switch down 2 times, then up one time for neutral, then down again or up when I want to put the flaps to up or take off again and the procedure repeats. In other words: putting landing flaps would mean: down, up, down, up, down - retracting them fast after the landing would mean an extremely fast clicking of up, down, up, down, up, down again. That is ridiculous. :p


Well, there's 2 ways I could respond to this.

One, in real life, pilots don't just cruise along and then suddenly slap in full landing flaps (banging off down-up-down-up-down as you say). If that's what you choose to do as a sim pilot, that's up to you. I can tell you that on my friend's Mooney, he has a self centering toggle switch. He has to hold the switch up or down to make the flaps move. In other words, entering the pattern, he'll reach over and hold the switch down for a number of seconds (pulling numbers out of the air here) to get 10 degrees of flaps. Then sometime on the crosswind or downwind, he's reaching over and holding the switch another 5-10 seconds to get the next desired amount of flaps, etc. On takeoff, he reaches over and holds the switch up until the flaps have fully retracted.

Two, what I posed was just one suggestion. Others have given you other ideas.

You could also make it so that every time you move between middle and down (in either direction) you get a notch of down flaps...and when you move it to 'up' it sends several up flap commands so one switch movement fully retracts them.

And yes, TARGET will have options as suggested for switch being in the held position...you could, for example, have it send a flap down command every 3 seconds the switch is in the down position.

TONS of options. It sounds like here you'd want someone to make a 4-position flap switch. Does IL-2 even _allow_ for separate inputs for every different flap position? I've only seen 'up' and 'down'. How would you propose making a 4 position switch work?

As I said in the other thread...it's impossible to please everyone all the time.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster
#3117989 - 10/18/10 05:02 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Teej]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 331
T}{OR Offline
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T}{OR  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 331
Croatia, Zagreb
Valid questions and nice summary of possible 'problems' with Warthog HOTAS.

Logitech could have had the best stick out there with the G940, but they failed to do so. Everything was covered - more than enough generic trim wheels and buttons to do various functions, force feedback and you get rudder pedals as well. I have to admit I was very excited that someone finally decided to do a FF HOTAS with all things considered.

Then I read all the complaints and user feedback...

There is no doubt that X65F is probably a great stick, but I just can't cope with the force sensing - which I am sure many WWI / WWII oriented virtual pilots will agree with me. With hali magnetic sensors and dual throttle, we simply don't have any other HOTAS to turn to.

The lack of rotary wheels on Warthog can easily be solved with Saitek's throttle quadrant: http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/quad.html


It is a real shame that Logitech missed the golden opportunity...

#3118124 - 10/18/10 07:49 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
Joined: Oct 1999
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Allen Offline
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Allen  Offline
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,839
Ohio USA
Having a genuine replica may entail some compromises. Nonetheless, a good replica is fun to have sitting next to me -- my Cougar.

Since I have a force mod Cougar, I doubt I'll buy a Warthog. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to smile

However, I also see a need for "generic" sticks as described in the original post. Thus, I have a Saitek X52Pro HOTAS -- which I find highly ergonomic.

Sometimes I want simplicity. Thus, I have a $30 Thrustmaster T-FlightStick X.

This being a hobby, they're all personal choices -- whatever makes it fun smile

In my case, I own 3 sticks just to have all my needs met. So, I can relate to the "feelings" behind the original post -- hard for one stick to do it all in a totally satisfactory way for everyone.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#3118209 - 10/18/10 10:04 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Chivas Offline
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Posts: 4,024
B.C. Canada
If the Target programming is as good as Foxy, I see no problem, programming all the commands, rotaries, toggles, and switches you could possibly use at least in a prop sim.


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
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Voice Activation Controls
#3119246 - 10/20/10 12:53 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
Joined: Sep 2002
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Macedk Offline
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Posts: 66
denmark
To me it looks like it has more function options than the Cougar, so for a thing like il-2 its total overkill.

I have flown Falcon 4.0 and Il-2 with the Cougar and i have found myself removing commands from the HOTAS, as it was a show stopper to have all mapped. (eject being the famous one ;))


DK Viking

PC Specs.
M/B: Asus P5Q pro
CPU Type: QuadCore Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Ram: Ddr2 6 Gb
Gfx: XFX 5850 1Gb black edition.
Audio: onboard
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster T220 22" LCD
joystick: TM Warthog #1400
sys os: Win7 sp1 (64bit)
Int. spd: 20 Mbit Dwn/ 2Mbit up.
#3119328 - 10/20/10 02:26 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Madfish]  
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Teej Offline
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Hah! Yeah, ya wanna be careful with that one, Mace.

I think I ran that on S3 + Paddle if I had it on at all.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster
#3119982 - 10/21/10 10:14 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - having inherent design flaws due to being a replica? [Re: Teej]  
Joined: Sep 2002
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Macedk Offline
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Macedk  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 66
denmark
Originally Posted By: Teej
Hah! Yeah, ya wanna be careful with that one, Mace.

I think I ran that on S3 + Paddle if I had it on at all.


Same smile but in a tight spot with sam's, aaa, radio, warning tones....it all ends in a swoosh sounds wink doh!

(the sqn mate's are on scene to say "yeah yeah you did it on purpose hehe)

Something to think about if you meet a call-sign "ripcord" rofl


DK Viking

PC Specs.
M/B: Asus P5Q pro
CPU Type: QuadCore Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Ram: Ddr2 6 Gb
Gfx: XFX 5850 1Gb black edition.
Audio: onboard
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster T220 22" LCD
joystick: TM Warthog #1400
sys os: Win7 sp1 (64bit)
Int. spd: 20 Mbit Dwn/ 2Mbit up.
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