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#3118872 - 10/19/10 09:29 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Teej Offline
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I was going to comment further on the round/square bit but I'll wait to see what Joe has to say first. biggrin

T


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
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#3118883 - 10/19/10 09:46 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Joe]  
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Aside the already noted problems, I am mostly interested in the stick and throttle precision. Even more so, since the G940 is plagued with the infamous 'reversal bug' (amongst other things). Since I do a lot of formation flying this is the top of my priorities for a next joystick purchase. There hasn't been a joystick built yet that can match MSFFB2's precision and I have tried many of them (except the Cougar). Dead zones and movement around the center is also very important to me. How good are those hali magnetic sensors we all keep hearing about?

So, if it isn't a problem - please comment on this in your review. smile



---

G940 reversal bug for those that don't know what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo

#3118924 - 10/19/10 10:53 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Squid_DK]  
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denmark
Originally Posted By: Squid_DK
Originally Posted By: Macedk
Most important for me is: who will offer this stick in Denmark ?? smile


It will propably not be cheaper to get in in Denmark compared to ordering from any of the european outlets, I used SimWare in Belgium.
But if any should be getting it my money would be Betafon or maybe Coolshop.

Staffan


Rgr that smile

But i haven't seen anything yet.

Thanks for the input anyway smile


DK Viking

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#3119049 - 10/20/10 02:51 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: T}{OR]  
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Originally Posted By: T.}{.O.R.
Aside the already noted problems, I am mostly interested in the stick and throttle precision. Even more so, since the G940 is plagued with the infamous 'reversal bug' (amongst other things). Since I do a lot of formation flying this is the top of my priorities for a next joystick purchase. There hasn't been a joystick built yet that can match MSFFB2's precision and I have tried many of them (except the Cougar). Dead zones and movement around the center is also very important to me. How good are those hali magnetic sensors we all keep hearing about?

So, if it isn't a problem - please comment on this in your review. smile



---

G940 reversal bug for those that don't know what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo


The MLX90333 3D Hall Effect sensor has 16bit SPI output. However, the accuracy of the SPI output is only 14bit. That's 16384 values. Assuming 70 degree of movement on each axis (measured from the patent drawing, and as a comparison, Cougar has about 50 degree) we get 70/16384=0.004272 ~= 0.004 degree. This is consistent to what I see in the MLX programmer, the PTC-04 (I see max drift of value 4 to 5).

I don't think anybody can hold 0.004 degree by hand even without springs to counter you. My experience with MLX90333 in my DiXYHS project shows that the stick will pick up a slight knock on the table. You would need to go pee regularly during long flying sessions, or it will show up in your flying. I have never ever seen spikes. Just ask the DiH testers and see if anybody has ever seen any spike with their MLX90316 in there!

Now, the dead zone has nothing to do with the Hall Sensor( unless TM programs the chip incorrectly), it has everything to do with the mechanism's capability to hold a consistent relationship between the magnet and the sensor, even under use and wear. A good ball and socket should do very well. WH does use a ball and socket, albeit a complicated completely not novel variation (just check google patent and you will see it's not). However, from the patent drawing, I do see a potential spot that might cause wear to develop slop. But, it should be very easy to remedy and fix by yourself. Nothing to be alarmed. Actually, it would be desirable to have it that way, so I can stick a piece of Teflon in there. ;-) Whether the lips of the socket activating the spring will wear or not, I don't know, but it would be a spot to watch. The thing is that as long as the ball and socket are in good tight contact, even if dead center develops due to the spring mechanism, the Hall measurement should still be accurate. I know, I stick an MLX90333 in a Cougar's factory gimbal. Sure, I still have horrible dead center, but within the dead center, I can still do accurate aiming w/o the spring force (a bit annoying though).

Again, even if that spring mechanism in WH wears and develops a "spring dead center" (as opposed to sensor dead center), it should be easily fixable. Of course, all the are based on the patent drawings.

#3119130 - 10/20/10 04:45 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Joe]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to point out that I am reading every post of this thread carefully as prep for the HOTAS Warthog review. These comments have helped me to prepare a punch list of topics I want to cover. The recent discussion over stick mounting angle adjustment and the "square peg / round hole" discussion are both great topics.

Keep 'em coming! The more topics the most interested followers (those participating in this thread) introduce up front, the more comprehensive the SimHQ review will be.


May I suggest you would check the paint quality? I will want to know about the alloy they used this time also.

Thanks.

#3119141 - 10/20/10 06:00 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Ark Offline
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I think I might cancel my pre-order.

It just occured to me that this thing costs as much as an Obutto cockpit. lol Sure wouldn't mind having one of those things. smile

As the days have ticked by, I have started gettig used to my Cougar + CH Throttle + CH Pedals and I am not so sure the TM Warthog is really worth the price premium right now. I used to dislike my Cougar quite a bit, but I must say, it is working pretty darn well with the DCS A-10C Beta.


Ark

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#3119170 - 10/20/10 07:54 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Teej]  
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Joe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Teej
I was going to comment further on the round/square bit but I'll wait to see what Joe has to say first. biggrin

T


OK, here's the deal. The ball joint itself rotates in a circle. This is apparent when the square opening is removed.

When the opening is in place (i.e. when one's stick is in one piece) the stick motion is constrained roughly to a square that is inscribed inside the circle that the joystick motion would otherwise be. It's not actually a square; it feels like an octagon that would result if the four corners of the square are chamfered off a slight amount.

Since the stick is reporting full electrical response as it moves through the octagon, I can only assume that the electronics are designed with the fact the the stick gets less physical travel than would otherwise be available.

#3119182 - 10/20/10 08:45 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: T}{OR]  
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Originally Posted By: T.}{.O.R.
Aside the already noted problems, I am mostly interested in the stick and throttle precision. Even more so, since the G940 is plagued with the infamous 'reversal bug' (amongst other things). Since I do a lot of formation flying this is the top of my priorities for a next joystick purchase. There hasn't been a joystick built yet that can match MSFFB2's precision and I have tried many of them (except the Cougar). Dead zones and movement around the center is also very important to me. How good are those hali magnetic sensors we all keep hearing about?

So, if it isn't a problem - please comment on this in your review. smile



---

G940 reversal bug for those that don't know what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo


I dont own the MSFFB2 (and never did, although I have heard others rave about it) but I do own the CH Fighterstick, Thor. And in comparison to the Cougar, G940, X-52 Pro, X-65 and some of the cheaper Saiteck models, the Fighterstick is the most precise (whether ROF, IL2, LOMAC or FSX). Dont know if you have tried it or not, but its good stuff. You might want to look into it.

Joe - I hope when you do this review, you compare it directly to some of the other high end stuff out, like the CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle, Cougar, G940, and X-52/X-65.

Last edited by TheEngineer; 10/20/10 08:46 AM.
#3119230 - 10/20/10 12:28 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Joe]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe

When the opening is in place (i.e. when one's stick is in one piece) the stick motion is constrained roughly to a square that is inscribed inside the circle that the joystick motion would otherwise be. It's not actually a square; it feels like an octagon that would result if the four corners of the square are chamfered off a slight amount.


Mirrors my observation.

What I was going to say was that I'd forgotten about the actual shape of movement at the limits because it's pretty rare for me to bang the stick over to the limits...and when I do it's usually just a straight aileron move (or nearly so) due to the way the -16 bleeds energy if you try to roll & pull at the same time. I've left the windows joystick analyzer going while dogfighting before and while of course there was some movement that didn't follow this pattern, the majority of the data points formed a nice solid "T" in the graphic window. There's not many combat aircraft you're going to live long in if you assault the corners of the travel.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
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#3119298 - 10/20/10 01:46 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Teej]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe
OK, here's the deal. The ball joint itself rotates in a circle. This is apparent when the square opening is removed.

When the opening is in place (i.e. when one's stick is in one piece) the stick motion is constrained roughly to a square that is inscribed inside the circle that the joystick motion would otherwise be. It's not actually a square; it feels like an octagon that would result if the four corners of the square are chamfered off a slight amount.

Since the stick is reporting full electrical response as it moves through the octagon, I can only assume that the electronics are designed with the fact the the stick gets less physical travel than would otherwise be available.



Ok, I'm relieved. Stick limits should be a box shape, not a circle. So it's the same "box" as the Cougar, but with a nicely countersunk edge to the box instead of a sharp one (take the rubber thingie off the Cougar and you'll see what I'm talking about).

Although this puts us right back to the stick grip offset problem only having a physical solution, I'm much happier than I was a couple of posts ago. smile


Originally Posted By: Teej
There's not many combat aircraft you're going to live long in if you assault the corners of the travel.


Ah, but Teej, you're thinking like an F-16 pilot... wink I'm not going to throw gas on the 'replica vs. generic' design choice campfire but there are some people (myself included) who will be flying the occasional Sopwith Pup/Hurricane/Bf-110/F-86 with this HOTAS as well as the A-10C. How about doing aerobatics in a Pitts against the low speed edge of the envelope? Stuffing the stick into the front left or right corner in your 109 for a neg. G break to escape that carbureted Spitfire bearing down on you from behind?


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3119315 - 10/20/10 02:02 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: jocko-]  
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Originally Posted By: jocko-
there are some people (myself included) who will be flying the occasional Sopwith Pup/Hurricane/Bf-110/F-86 with this HOTAS


Overkill much? biggrin

Hmmm. What's the opposite of steampunk?

Cheers.

T


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster
#3119358 - 10/20/10 03:17 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Hempstead]  
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T}{OR Offline
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Originally Posted By: CADDY
The MLX90333 3D Hall Effect sensor has 16bit SPI output. However, the accuracy of the SPI output is only 14bit. That's 16384 values. Assuming 70 degree of movement on each axis (measured from the patent drawing, and as a comparison, Cougar has about 50 degree) we get 70/16384=0.004272 ~= 0.004 degree. This is consistent to what I see in the MLX programmer, the PTC-04 (I see max drift of value 4 to 5).

I don't think anybody can hold 0.004 degree by hand even without springs to counter you. My experience with MLX90333 in my DiXYHS project shows that the stick will pick up a slight knock on the table. You would need to go pee regularly during long flying sessions, or it will show up in your flying. I have never ever seen spikes. Just ask the DiH testers and see if anybody has ever seen any spike with their MLX90316 in there!

Now, the dead zone has nothing to do with the Hall Sensor( unless TM programs the chip incorrectly), it has everything to do with the mechanism's capability to hold a consistent relationship between the magnet and the sensor, even under use and wear. A good ball and socket should do very well. WH does use a ball and socket, albeit a complicated completely not novel variation (just check google patent and you will see it's not). However, from the patent drawing, I do see a potential spot that might cause wear to develop slop. But, it should be very easy to remedy and fix by yourself. Nothing to be alarmed. Actually, it would be desirable to have it that way, so I can stick a piece of Teflon in there. ;-) Whether the lips of the socket activating the spring will wear or not, I don't know, but it would be a spot to watch. The thing is that as long as the ball and socket are in good tight contact, even if dead center develops due to the spring mechanism, the Hall measurement should still be accurate. I know, I stick an MLX90333 in a Cougar's factory gimbal. Sure, I still have horrible dead center, but within the dead center, I can still do accurate aiming w/o the spring force (a bit annoying though).

Again, even if that spring mechanism in WH wears and develops a "spring dead center" (as opposed to sensor dead center), it should be easily fixable. Of course, all the are based on the patent drawings.


This is excellent stuff. Thanks for explaining. smile Then I should rephrase my questions - how is the 'sensor dead center' in the Warthog and can it be adjusted like with the MSFFB2?


Originally Posted By: TheEngineer
I dont own the MSFFB2 (and never did, although I have heard others rave about it) but I do own the CH Fighterstick, Thor. And in comparison to the Cougar, G940, X-52 Pro, X-65 and some of the cheaper Saiteck models, the Fighterstick is the most precise (whether ROF, IL2, LOMAC or FSX). Dont know if you have tried it or not, but its good stuff. You might want to look into it.

Joe - I hope when you do this review, you compare it directly to some of the other high end stuff out, like the CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle, Cougar, G940, and X-52/X-65.


I forgot about the CH stuff. Haven't tried any of their sticks but have also heard some good stuff about them. Since MSFFB2 fulfills all my requirements (for now), I am looking into purchasing a HOTAS system. And Warthog seems like the best choice.



Originally Posted By: TheEngineer
Joe - I hope when you do this review, you compare it directly to some of the other high end stuff out, like the CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle, Cougar, G940, and X-52/X-65.



Excellent point, and don't forget the MSFFB2. Although, be very careful because this could potentially influence many HOTAS purchases in the future. smile


IMO, with everything else of course - probably the best Warthog's feature is the detachable base which makes it ideal for simpits.

#3119363 - 10/20/10 03:29 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Joe]  
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Boildown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to point out that I am reading every post of this thread carefully as prep for the HOTAS Warthog review. These comments have helped me to prepare a punch list of topics I want to cover. The recent discussion over stick mounting angle adjustment and the "square peg / round hole" discussion are both great topics.

Keep 'em coming! The more topics the most interested followers (those participating in this thread) introduce up front, the more comprehensive the SimHQ review will be.


Hey this is Boildown from the Aces High forums. Thanks for the T-Shirt btw (whomever sent it).

I'm mostly interested in how and if the increased precision of the stick (16 bit vs 8 bit for almost everything else) has an effect on gameplay. Does it really help make precise maneuvers, for example?

Background:

I was out of the flight sim genre for a long time, and came back a couple years ago, bought a full set of new CH gear, and was just stunned when I figured out it all used a mere 256 values to describe every axis, and it was standard for every stick on the market. 8 bit went the way of the dodo in every other computer related technology at least a decade ago, but for some reason the joystick manufacturers are stuck in the stone age, with the same precision as the P.O.S. I used playing Wing Commander 20 years ago on a 12 MHz 80286.

The only reason for this is either increased precision was tested to make no difference in actual games, or gross negligence (or collusion) among the joystick manufacturers, as even a 12 bit description of an axis would result in a stunning increase in precision. Considering how tried and true and even obsolete most 16 bit devices are now-a-days, joystick manufacturers ought to have been able to give us a real upgrade years ago, but for some reason haven't. It should have been one of the very first things done after they started to go to USB interfaces. The Warthog is one of the first (if not the first) to increase its precision, and that is the main feature I'm interested in (along with quality to last for years and years, in five years it should still work perfectly but be obsoleted by something better).

I'm curious to see if I'm wrong or right about the precision thing. Thanks!

#3119398 - 10/20/10 04:18 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Teej Offline
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Boil:

The reason for 8 bit limitations was cost.

Standard quality potentiometers are cheap, as are the A/D circuits to sample them at ~ 10-12 bits, and then provide an 8-bit value to the computer after oversampling.

Going to high end pots and samplers raises the cost exponentially.

If a part...say a high end pot...cost the manufacturer $5 extra each...and you're using 2 (X/Y)...that cost them another $10. Because of the way the distribution chains work, that extra $10 in manufacturing costs will result in a store/site price bump of $25-40...perhaps more.

Then, just because the pots are more accurate doesn't help - you need a higher end sampling circuit which may require a higher end processing brain, etc.

Now this doesn't _have_ to be a huge price increase...When I built my RC helicopter autopilot (auto-hover, really), for example, I was, at one point, sampling 4 control inputs, generating 4 control outputs, oversampling a 3-axis accelerometer and communicating with an altimeter chip and an LCD display unit over an I2C bus with a processor chip that had a pricetag of a couple of bucks in single unit quantities.


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
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#3119409 - 10/20/10 04:27 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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B.C. Canada
MSFF2 > CH > G940 > Cougar > X52. The Warthog should soon head that list, but I've been disappointed many times before. I own them all, and still trying to find a decent replacement for the discontinued MS stick.


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#3119425 - 10/20/10 04:40 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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citizen guod Offline
Lifer
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First person to email me with the name of two airlines Col. Andy Bush flew after he retired from the Air Force as a hog driver wins a Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog T-Shirt. You must include your SimHQ nickname.

Sizes available: M, L, 2XL


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#3119438 - 10/20/10 04:55 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Chivas]  
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T}{OR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
MSFF2 > CH > G940 > Cougar > X52. The Warthog should soon head that list, but I've been disappointed many times before. I own them all, and still trying to find a decent replacement for the discontinued MS stick.


G940 is better than X52 and Cougar, even with 'reversal bug' and the faulty throttle and spiking trim wheels? (I don't own one, I am just quoting what people have reported on these forums)

Nice to see a feedback from someone who tried both MSFF2 and CH...

Last edited by T.}{.O.R.; 10/20/10 05:04 PM. Reason: spelling
#3119445 - 10/20/10 04:57 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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jocko- Offline
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Originally Posted By: guod
First person to email me with the name of two airlines Col. Andy Bush flew after he retired from the Air Force as a hog driver wins a Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog T-Shirt. You must include your SimHQ nickname.

Sizes available: M, L, 2XL


You've got mail


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3119463 - 10/20/10 05:13 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Vierzinger Offline
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Denmark
This is the release date right?!?

I 'just happend' to connect to thrustmasters ftp by a dedicated FTP application.
And in "accessories -> pc -> HOTAS - software -> TARGET"
I find the software and manuals for Warthog.

Since I preordered the Warthog 90 days ago, I have been trying apply my IL2 Cougar file to the Warthog by pseudoprogramming.
After downloading and installing T.A.R.G.E.T I have played around with it.
1) The guy software simply wont start on my Windows 7 64bit. Since I dont have the stick yet I guess that it might be the lack of stick there are the reason for the crashing.

2)The script editor reminds me of the days of the Thrustmaster F22. It looks like a unix admins wet dream and a windows admins nightmare. I feel bombed back to the stoneage.
I see an oppotunity of James Hallows of selling a new version of Foxy converted for thrustmasters new script language.


3) Script language
Where as Cougar where a kind of intermediate scriptlanguage, the new script language takes raises or lowers (depending on your taste) the language to a whole new level. It is in essence a true script/programming language.
Since I never managed to learn Java, I think this is a step back. But it is just me.


3) Target_Script_editor_basics.pdf
This manual are far from sufficiant. In the basic manual, keystrokes are all mades as USB[] code examples but there are no explanation/appendix to be found.
Comparing it to the Foxy (for Cougar) I find it very rudementary. But hope that the gear ships with a much more complete manual.


I know I sound very negativ, but I have high hopes of the Warthog and would not have bought it if I thought it would be uable to replace my Evenstrain Cougar pilot

EDIT
Bugtracker not yet ready even though the stick got released today.
http://target-bugtracker.thrustmaster.com/


Last edited by Vierzinger; 10/20/10 05:22 PM.

Will we EVER get a real Rainbow Six game again. One for the real Tactic fans? A WWII sim with a dynamic campagn. Games with deept?
#3119475 - 10/20/10 05:23 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Joe]  
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Tbag Offline
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Tbag  Offline
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Haslemere, UK
Originally Posted By: Joe
This week.


Great news! F5 mode on smile


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
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