#3113024 - 10/11/10 08:30 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Josh Echo]
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,179
WWBrian
Member
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Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,179
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I don't see the appeal of flyable two-seaters at all. I thought they were terribly boring to fly and to gun from, and to fight against. And in other sims which had them, you almost never saw anyone fly them online. I'm not sure why people are excited about them here. Ya know - not everyone likes to fly around in the latest-and-greatest-super-duper-uber-plane! Some just want a more contiguous pilot career. Many like them simply for the challenge - heck, my current favorite is the DH2. There are many reasons why they appeal to players, I've only named two!
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#3113031 - 10/11/10 08:37 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Teddy Bär]
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Lukasz
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Warsaw, Poland
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Hello, the list of potential 2-seaters is huge indeed. I am also a big fan of them, enjoyed flying them in other ww1 sim (RS). Here is a list of some 2-seaters which I created. I think that those are the most common ones used from September 1916 - November 1918. Yes, there are many more and I guess that you may not agree with me on this list... Great Britain: - BE2c - for a starter 2-seater, as the campaign starts from September 1916 - RE8 - cooperation plane for BEF through the whole 1917 and part of 1918 - Bristol F.2b - 1917/18 period. A must for me - DH4 - advanced bomber for 1917-1918 period - FE2b - well known pusher type plane used in 1916/17 - DH9 and DH9a - ? - that would be also some nice one France: - Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter - yes, this is British design, but the French also built her in pretty large numbers. Good for 1916/17 period. Can be used by BEF as well, not to mention some Eastern Front in the future... Used through 1916/17 - Salmson A.2a - great bird for the 1918 period. Also for AEF. - Breguet XIV B.2 - already in game. 1917/18 period The A.2 would be cool, but it is only my wish. The Dev will not start building aircraft similar to the existing one - Caudron G.IV - very interesting plane for the 1916/early 1917 period. Should be covered well, because of the lack of the rear gunner Germany: - DFW C.V - covers 1916-18 period. Already in game - Rumpler C.IV - for the 1917-18 period - the high alt recon (the C.VII would be awesome as well, but so many planes here...) - Hannover Cl.II or Cl.IIIa - the Germans need at least one Cl - class bird for some ground attacks - 1917-18 - Halberstadt Cl.II or Cl.IV - as above. Perhaps only one to choose - 1917-18 - LVG C.V (for 1917) or LVG C.VI (for 1918) - one of the best German 2-seaters - some Albatros C - class ? (but there were so many of them - from C.V, C.VII, C.X, C.XII, to C.XV) 1916-18 period - Roland C.II for 1916 ? There could be also Aviatik C.III, or Albatros C.III... I think the dilemma can be solved only by checking the survived documentation. While I think that it is not a problem to build external models for any of them above, the problem would start with the cockpit data which is a must to sell the plane rather to have some AI-only (but AI-only for RoF would be also good IMHO) Now, pick, let's say, four of those For me that would be: RE8, Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter, Hannover (or Halb) Cl.II and maybe the Roland C.II. But while there are some nice references for the first two, the German birds suffer from poor cockpit data :/ Regards, Lucas
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#3113114 - 10/11/10 09:57 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Mogster]
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,216
Josh Echo
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Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,216
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It is simply another skill-set to develop and expand your experience. And yes you can engage, stay out of their field of fire, AND shoot them down. No. Not if they do things half-way right. Well the bold sections of your post are kinda self-contradictory aren't they??? A "well-flown two-seater" verses a well-flown scout is still a flying contest, no matter whether your target has a sting in his tail. Very funny. In this case, "well-flown" simply means, "flying in a constant circle at a 45 degree bank instead of flying straight and level." The status of "well-flown" for the two-seaters is infinitely easier to achieve than it is for a fighter. Actually it is a pretty fair fight when you think about it. You still have to out fly them; it just means you can't be a one-dimensional pilot, i.e. you have to have gunnery skills as well as stick skills. No. All he has to do is fly in a tight, slow, low-G circle, and no flying on your part will prevent you from getting hit. Which turns it into a gunnery fight, in which case you will get hit no matter how good you are, unless the other guy just happens to suck. And what the heck is a "constant H.O." ? I think if you were reading my posts to try to understand what I am trying to say, that this would be apparent to you already. Seriously when the 2 seaters start manouvering they stop firing at me as they should. With Veteran or Ace AI They fire when the pilot stops the high G stuff but not in steep turns, that's what I find anyway. I had 4 QMB's Pup against a DFW last night, mostly the DFW was manouvering so hard that the rear gunner couldn't get a shot off. Yes, I've noticed this. In R.o.F., currently, I never die to two-seaters. In fact, I'm never even hit by them except on the very rare occasions I get impatient and screw up. But human players in two-seaters will just make tight, slow, low-G turns, and will be able to shoot directly at you the whole time. These aircraft can turn faster (and at at low G) than your aircraft can circle, meaning that you can't stay under their tail. Fighting a rear gunner, and fighting as a rear gunner, will both be very much like, as I said, a constant head-on firing pass.
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#3114193 - 10/13/10 02:56 AM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Lukasz]
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
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I think the dilemma can be solved only by checking the survived documentation. While I think that it is not a problem to build external models for any of them above, the problem would start with the cockpit data which is a must to sell the plane rather to have some AI-only (but AI-only for RoF would be also good IMHO) The National Air and Space Museum has a restored CL.IV in its inventory, so that would help.
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#3114300 - 10/13/10 11:23 AM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Teddy Bär]
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,623
Mogster
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,623
England
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I know some may disagree but I'd be happy with a best guess cockpit if photos of certain areas aren't available. It used to bug me a bit in IL2 when Maddox refused to build cockpits for some aircraft because they didn't have dtailed photo's of the left side console or some such.
WAS C2D 8500 3.16ghz, 285gtx 1gb, 4gig ram, XP NOW Win7 64, I5 2500K, SSD, 8Gig ram, GTX 570
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#3114308 - 10/13/10 11:41 AM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Teddy Bär]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
RSColonel_131st
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
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I've flown the Stuka in IL-2 online wars, and that war was set up such that our ground kills advanced the front line.
What's the saying, "Fighter Pilots make Movies, Bomber Pilots make History!" Our Stuka attacks broke up a serious encirclement over a few evening's worth of missions, and that was an awesome feeling.
Also, I enjoyed offline the IL-2, switching between pilot and rear gunner.
I'm primarly interested in the Scouts these days, but the RE8 simple needs to find it's way into the game (how can there be not a single british two-seater in a game the focuses on late war aerial combat?). And I would fly it.
Especially - but that is a big order - if NeoQB manages to program an interface for doing shoots with the arty, or a system for photo recon work. Artillery was the single most powerful weapon of WW1, I'd love to see walk a line of impacts up to a specific target.
Also, weren't the german dedicated ground attack AC mostly two-seaters?
Some twin engined bombers will also be welcome, though I still think the Gotha and Handley-Page are oversized for the RoF setting.
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#3115417 - 10/14/10 05:29 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: LukeFF]
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Bandy
Member
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Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Wishing I was in the La Cloche
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The National Air and Space Museum has a restored CL.IV in its inventory, so that would help. I'll see what I can do about getting up close for an image, I live/work in the D.C. area... If I post from jail, will you guys bail me out?
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#3115612 - 10/14/10 09:02 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Josh Echo]
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 697
Sturm_Williger
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Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 697
Virtual Paradise
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... But human players in two-seaters will just make tight, slow, low-G turns, and will be able to shoot directly at you the whole time. These aircraft can turn faster (and at at low G) than your aircraft can circle, meaning that you can't stay under their tail. Fighting a rear gunner, and fighting as a rear gunner, will both be very much like, as I said, a constant head-on firing pass. Ah but if you bring friends as in real life, the gunner on the 2-seater will have a much harder job, as will the pilot in deciding who to attempt to evade... If you can't stay under his tail, you dive away a short distance, he'll have someone else to worry about and you can come back to ruin his day. I think when we get flyable 2-seaters in the game, we're in for some epic online battles No more on the deck turnfests, people will have to start using tactics, teamwork ( more than currently - not saying there isn't any ) and numbers. It's going to reflect the reality in a weird way - they'll send more, we'll send more, they'll get smarter, we'll get smarter... the future for RoF looks excellent. Personally I can't wait ( hope hope ) for a Walfisch ( that's a really cool skin too, Bandy ). Didn't some of the RFC aces reckon it was one of the most dangerous 2-seaters to attack ? Almost the Central Brisfit of its time.
"Another glass of your loathsome, vaguely beerish frozen swill, if you please."
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#3115672 - 10/14/10 10:24 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Teddy Bär]
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,890
Warbirds
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,890
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According to this exchange the Gotha will be first;
guod: "What bombers and two-seaters will be flyable?" Jason: "Well this has been an open secret for a while, but Gotha G.V. and the Handley-Page 0/400 first then the Breguet 14 and D.F.W.CV. After that we do not know which bombers or recon birds we will build."
I do hope that is going to be the case as the Gotha would be a trip to take off and fly around. I am with the crowd that loves old airplanes and loves the beautiful models they are making for this sim. I went through the Turn and Burn stuff years ago and even though I still like a good twist and shout I also like to just fly around and take of and land these kites. Of course shooting a big Gotha down would also be a trip.
Last edited by Warbirds; 10/14/10 10:29 PM.
"A time when America was great,,when the chrome was thick and the women were straight" - Micheal Savage
"If you really want to experience flight in this life then you have to strap a DC-3 to your ass." - Buffalo Joe McBryan President & Captain Buffalo Airways
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#3116988 - 10/16/10 09:28 PM
Re: So no one noticed the Breguet 14 & DFW C.V snapviews?
[Re: Warbirds]
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,984
Master
meh
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meh
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,984
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According to this exchange the Gotha will be first;
guod: "What bombers and two-seaters will be flyable?" Jason: "Well this has been an open secret for a while, but Gotha G.V. and the Handley-Page 0/400 first then the Breguet 14 and D.F.W.CV. After that we do not know which bombers or recon birds we will build."
I do hope that is going to be the case as the Gotha would be a trip to take off and fly around. I am with the crowd that loves old airplanes and loves the beautiful models they are making for this sim. I went through the Turn and Burn stuff years ago and even though I still like a good twist and shout I also like to just fly around and take of and land these kites. Of course shooting a big Gotha down would also be a trip. I have been praying every night for a year that the gotha series would make it into RoF asap. I cant wait. Sadly I wish they would have started with the earlier gothas though. I would love to see each one of the series modeled. They are basically the same so it shouldnt take too much time.
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