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#3080476 - 08/26/10 04:52 AM
Blip turns
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,187
Damocles
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Posts: 1,187
Inverness Scotland
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I've heard blip turns mentioned several times and would like to try and include them in my flying repertoire. I understand the principle, but my flying is such that I haven't noticed any great difference when I turn if I press the blip switch. Could somebody please explain the WHEN and HOW'S of blip turning for me. 
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#3080833 - 08/26/10 06:55 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: WWBrian]
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Pooch
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Orlando, FL
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Yes, and of course it's for slowing down the airplane so you can make a tighter turn. In a car, if you want to take a corner, tightly, you let off of the gas pedal, naturally. If you don't, centrifigal force is going to force you way out and cause you to make a big, wide turn.
So, when you want to turn tightly in a Rotary powered airplane, you blip the engine, and that slows down the machine, tightening your circle. In a liquid cooled design , you would use the throttle for the same reason.
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
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#3080993 - 08/26/10 11:01 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Pooch]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,520
BadBud
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Member
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La Mesa, California, USA
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The two most important buttons on my controllers are the trigger and the blip switch. Do not underestimate the power of the blip switch.............it can save your life! BadBud www.simflite.com
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#3081066 - 08/27/10 12:34 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: BadBud]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 711
R_Suppards
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melb australia
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Pooch, I'm no aeronautical expert but are not two forces at work here? I can accept centrifugal force but I could be wrong, isn't the other problem that as speed decreases so does lift? The wings are already less efficient because of the bank so I would expect a loss of height with less power.
BadBud,
It's great to know you consider the two most important buttons are the trigger and the blip switch. Could you please explain why the blip switch is so important? Detail does seem to be missing.
Jerry
Last edited by jerryc; 08/27/10 12:36 AM. Reason: typo
Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
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#3081182 - 08/27/10 05:54 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: R_Suppards]
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,187
Damocles
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Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,187
Inverness Scotland
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Yes, and of course it's for slowing down the airplane so you can make a tighter turn. In a car, if you want to take a corner, tightly, you let off of the gas pedal, naturally. If you don't, centrifigal force is going to force you way out and cause you to make a big, wide turn.
So, when you want to turn tightly in a Rotary powered airplane, you blip the engine, and that slows down the machine, tightening your circle. In a liquid cooled design , you would use the throttle for the same reason. Ok, that's the principle, but exactly when do I blip, for how long and does it work in both directions ? Do I blip during the turn, or momentarily before I roll and pull or just during the roll ? I must be doing something wrong, because when flying the Camel, I can't say I've noticed any difference between blipping or not blipping.
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#3081241 - 08/27/10 08:15 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Damocles]
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,524
Keithb77
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UK
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In a car, if you want to take a corner, tightly, you let off of the gas pedal, naturally. Strictly, in a car, for maximum turning speed you change down a gear or two and accelerate firmly around the corner. This works best in cars with proper gearboxes and suspensions though.... For the Camel (and other rotary engines), the engine will pull you around in one direction faster than the other...so arguably blipping the throttle might help in one direction? I'm dubious though. Camel 'Pilots notes' extract Cheers, Keith
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#3081696 - 08/27/10 08:02 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: R_Suppards]
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 65
BullpupBarrie
Junior Member
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UK
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Pooch, I'm no aeronautical expert but are not two forces at work here? I can accept centrifugal force but I could be wrong.... Maybe a bit pedantic but please note there is no such thing as centrifugal "force". The reason you can turn tighter at lower speed is surely just that in the time it takes your vehicle to change its heading by a given amount, it has covered less distance because it is going slower. (Of course, it's not quite that simple because in an aeroplane the rate of change of the aircraft's heading is greater at higher speed because the centripetal force (lift acting towards the centre of its turning arc) is higher). Disclaimer - I'm no aeronautical expert either.
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#3099409 - 09/23/10 12:00 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Damocles]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 711
R_Suppards
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melb australia
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BadBud, let me say from the outset that I have only had ROF for three months and have settled short term on understanding the Camel, so I can't answer for all rotaries. I was not attacking you, but making a statement without giving reasons had me frustrated, I genuinely wanted to know,so I could learn more. I have to say I haven't lost a wing in the Camel yet, but as you say, it might be the different flying techniques we use. Initially I suffered engine trouble from over revving so for me the blip was to save engine stress. I use the blip in a dive, when I want to slow down, either to line a victim up or cause one to overshoot me. I know some with greater experience then I have, use the blip more creatively., For example to cause the nose to change direction to line up an otherwise difficult shot.So when you said how important the blip was to you I was very interested.
Jerry
Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
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#3099551 - 09/23/10 06:27 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Josh Echo]
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,653
DocW
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what about the gyroscopic force of the spinning metal ? Like crankshaft and such ? Since I'd reckon it to offer most of the mass of an ww1 airplane, it may be a substantial part of the force counteracting a turn. But I have no figures on it handy. If I find the time I'll do a little research on it. Michael. well, found this: The demise of the rotary came about for several reasons. Among the most important of these was the large rotating mass of the engine which produced gyroscopic forces. These forces had their useful features - if the pilot could master them before something happened to lessen his desire to fly. It provided the Sopwith Camel with remarkable turning power. However, the engine also delivered sharp torque reversals when the ignition was cut which was tough on the engine mounts and the airframe.
Another problem encountered by rotary engine designers was met when trying to meet the demand for greater power. The size of the engine could be expanded in only two directions: make it larger in circumference, make it more than one row (deeper). The problem with the first solution was that this just made the gyroscopic forces even more unmanageable. The second way out of the problem provided much the same effect and the rear bank of cylinders were hard to cool. from http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20site/frames/rotary%20engines_frame.htm and this: When a Sopwith Camel's flight stick was pulled back, not only would the nose rise, but because of the gyroscopic effects it would also move to the left. When the stick was pushed forward, the nose went down and to the right. This effect had to figured into gun aiming as an extra variable, reducing accuracy.
from http://rogerspace.org/html/wwi.html So my bet is in real life in a Camel you'd notice an effect of using the blip-switch in turns.
Last edited by DocW; 09/23/10 07:43 AM.
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#3100175 - 09/24/10 02:16 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: R_Suppards]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,520
BadBud
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Member
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La Mesa, California, USA
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Jerry....................I fly and like the Camel (and the Fokker Dr.1) as you do and you are right. I have no problem with the wings coming off with these two, but I do not take any changes. It is all the other rotary engined planes that I am referring to. Good luck, BadBud www.simflite.com
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#3100232 - 09/24/10 04:41 AM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Damocles]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 711
R_Suppards
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melb australia
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BadBud,
In QMB Duel I can stress a Dr1 into losing it's top wing without firing a shot when harassing it with the Camel. I find it excellent practice in getting the best out of the Camel. Tests me to the max. How do you find the Dr1, which I haven't flown yet?
Jerry
Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
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#3100480 - 09/24/10 03:23 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: BullpupBarrie]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,586
kaa
Senior Member
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Posts: 3,586
France
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Pooch, I'm no aeronautical expert but are not two forces at work here? I can accept centrifugal force but I could be wrong.... Maybe a bit pedantic but please note there is no such thing as centrifugal "force". The reason you can turn tighter at lower speed is surely just that in the time it takes your vehicle to change its heading by a given amount, it has covered less distance because it is going slower. (Of course, it's not quite that simple because in an aeroplane the rate of change of the aircraft's heading is greater at higher speed because the centripetal force (lift acting towards the centre of its turning arc) is higher). Disclaimer - I'm no aeronautical expert either. Hi, try to turn in a very narrow 90° street at 5 mph...now the same at 100mph, I bet that you'll find from yourself what is centrifugal force.When you'll get out the wreck of your car, of course.
"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him."
Tom Cundall.
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#3100523 - 09/24/10 04:33 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: R_Suppards]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,520
BadBud
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Member
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Posts: 1,520
La Mesa, California, USA
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Jerry, I like flying the Dr1. It is tricky and can cause some frustration, but is a favorite of mine as is the Camel. I like every plane in my hanger (which is all available) eccept the DH2 and the E3. These two can be fun, but in air combat, get me killed one way or another. Keep blippin' BadBud www.simflite.com
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#3100683 - 09/24/10 07:52 PM
Re: Blip turns
[Re: Damocles]
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 65
BullpupBarrie
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 65
UK
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Kaa - hello, fortunately, there's a handy animation on the internet that shows us both what goes on when executing a turn in a car so I won't have to risk my life conducting your experiment. Check it out below, and read the description, I think it explains the whole centrifugal force misconcenption rather well. http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys06/bcentrif/centrif.htm
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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