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#3079526 - 08/24/10 07:51 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Schmetze]  
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Originally Posted By: Schmetze
... but the have told me, that i have ordered a driving wheel frown
Yeah, most of the sellers below have it as the Ferrari Wireless GT Cockpit 430 Scuderia Edition. You know the one, folding, looks like you're on a jetski?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3081923 - 08/28/10 01:51 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: JAMF]  
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I just realised something and it bugs me about the the new TM set. As we know, they have a paddle at the base of the stick that is removable if you don't wish to have it (supposedly the A-10 doesn't although someone showed pics of it having one). I wish they had done something similar with an antenna rotary. It's not so much that I care about rotaries, but given that this is almost identical to what is in the F-15C and E models, and given that Lomac is out there with an F-15 already, this throttle is screaming for that antenna wheel on the outboard throttle. I wish they had put one there, or put one that you could remove if you wanted to go exactly like the A-10.

It was a great idea doing that for the paddle on the stick, I wish they had thought of that for wheel and the throttle as well. Sort of a shame.


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#3082343 - 08/28/10 07:48 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Corsair8X]  
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Originally Posted By: Corsair8X
I just realised something and it bugs me about the the new TM set. As we know, they have a paddle at the base of the stick that is removable if you don't wish to have it (supposedly the A-10 doesn't although someone showed pics of it having one). I wish they had done something similar with an antenna rotary. It's not so much that I care about rotaries, but given that this is almost identical to what is in the F-15C and E models, and given that Lomac is out there with an F-15 already, this throttle is screaming for that antenna wheel on the outboard throttle. I wish they had put one there, or put one that you could remove if you wanted to go exactly like the A-10.

It was a great idea doing that for the paddle on the stick, I wish they had thought of that for wheel and the throttle as well. Sort of a shame.





You know what? I agree with you 100%. TM put a lot of thought into this HOTAS with only a few exceptions...

1) They are clinging to the removable stick grip idea. Fair enough. It's a much closer (still not perfect, mind you) grip to the late Block F-16 grips the A-10C stick is based on and therefore a perfect substitute for you original Cougar grip when flying an F-16. We shall see if any add-on stick grips are manufactured in future (ie. F-15/F-18). I'm not holding my breath. The removable paddle switch is all about retrofitting the Cougar with a better grip, it is not forward thinking, only backwards wrt compatibility.

2) Related to 1) above, If they were planning to turn a RL A-10C throttle friction knob into a mappable axis and then add yet another style of friction control, why not just put an extra wheel on the throttle grip and leave the friction control as is? Now you have an A-10C throttle quadrant that could easily substitute for an F-15/F-18 one. Flying an A-10, ignore the throttle wheel. Flying an F-15 or F-18 - ignore the associated switch placards/assignments on the throttle base AS YOU WILL ANYWAY WHEN FLYING ANY OTHER SIM BESIDES DCS A-10C or LOMAC... Example: I fly Aces High 2 with my Cougar. I use just about all the axes and buttons on the Cougar to fly a WWII prop sim. Did WWII aircraft use a HOTAS system - no. Nothing in AH2 calls for a missle step button or an antenna elevation thumb wheel but I map other functions like armament selection and elevator trim to those controls. Everybody is going to do the same with the WH outside of LOMAC or DCS: A-10C and will have to ignore all those pretty switch function placards (and integral lighting) just like Cougar users do when they aren`t flying an F-16.

They gave us an axis in place of a friction knob and an afterburner gate for an aircraft without an afterburner. Why not go whole hog (pun intended) and give us a more generic F-15/F-18 throttle quadrant instead...

IMO they didn`t go this route making the Warthog a bit more jack-of-all-trades because the No. 1 customer to TM is the military. The public are just happy second bananas - and I will be a very happy boy when I receive my HOTAS Warthog, be sure. The military is going to get an A-10C HOTAS with a different method of setting throttle friction and a mappable axis they won`t use. We are going to get an A-10C HOTAS with a bonus axis that isn`t as ergonomic as it could be because you`ll have to take your hand off the throttles to use it.

Based on the Cougar`s history I wouldn`t be surprised if the very talented modding population out there finds a way of adding a axis/wheel to the Warthog throttle. I am already looking forward to the day that someone offers an extended stick shaft with a stronger centering spring (to offset the greater moment arm the metal stick grip produces at a longer distance from the fulcrum) and a wiring bundle extension, maybe even twist the stick mount adapter 10 degrees or so for better ergonomics like in RL. Ian J and all you other CNC wizards out there, get on it, I`ve got the money put aside!

smile


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3082438 - 08/28/10 11:07 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: jocko-]  
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Georgetown. Cool.

I guess you can't think of everything is the theme to this. In their defense - I hadn't heard anyone else mention "hey, why not a wheel?" so I can't really give them a lot of grief over this. But as you said it does have an afterburner region so yes you could use this for other aircraft. I don't want to take my hand off the throttle to operate that "friction" axis. I've sort of relegated that in my head to landing gear smile.

Hopefully there would be a mod. I was thinking of my own actually. Probably overkill, but if the handle is metal, then why not a magnetic antenna wheel (possibly using bluetooth so you don't have to mess with wires). Likely not perfect but something I came up with last night still thinking about it.


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#3082635 - 08/29/10 09:23 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: jocko-]  
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Nutty Offline
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Originally Posted By: jocko-

IMO they didn`t go this route making the Warthog a bit more jack-of-all-trades because the No. 1 customer to TM is the military. The public are just happy second bananas


That's absolutely not true. There is no special version for the military, and they buy them through the same channels as you and I. This is a HOTAS designed for simmers with a great deal of input from simmers.

Now I absolutely agree that having perpendicular rotaries on a throttle are highly desirable even in sims which don't have specific assignments for them. Hmmm .. I wonder if there's a way to mod the Warthog with a Cougar throttle grip. Now that would be awesome! wink

Nutty


James "Nutty" Hallows
ViperDrivers
#3082831 - 08/29/10 04:44 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Nutty]  
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531 Ghost Offline
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Nutty (James), You being the programming guru you are, I ran into a game yesterday that apparently did not for some stupid reason have a way to assign DX axis in the game. They were simple key presses to move the elevator, aileron, rudder, and throttle. I know you know there is a way to do do this with Control Manager:

Code:
script
// First set up some constants for the timers so it's not
  // necessary to rewrite the whole script each time.
  //
  %define xOnTime 1
  %define xOffTime 10
  %define yOnTime 1
  %define yOffTime 10
  %define loTriggerValue 112
  %define hiTriggerValue 144

  // Now set up 4 timers that generate pulses based on the
  // stick position. Each one sets a constant ON time and an
  // OFF time that depends on the stick position. That's used
  // that to time the "tapping" of the buttons that drive the:
  // Elevator-Pitch-UP				   KBDOWN
  // Elevator-Pitch-DOWN				 KBUP
  // Ailerons-Roll-RIGHT				 KBRIGHT
  // Ailerons-Roll-LEFT				   KBLEFT (cms.b1..cms.b4).
  //
  timer( INTERVAL, d1, yOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( loTriggerValue - js1.a2 )) / yOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js1.a2 < loTriggerValue ];
  cms.b2 = d1; // send the KBUP on cms.b2 (lo side -> forward)

  timer( INTERVAL, d2, yOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( js1.a2 - hiTriggerValue )) / yOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js1.a2 > hiTriggerValue ];
  cms.b1 = d2; // send the KBDOWN on cms.b1 (hi side -> back)

  timer( INTERVAL, d3, xOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( loTriggerValue - js1.a1 )) / xOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js1.a1 < loTriggerValue ];
  cms.b3 = d3; // send the KBLEFT on cms.b3 (lo side -> left)

  timer( INTERVAL, d4, xOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( js1.a1 - hiTriggerValue )) / xOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js1.a1 > hiTriggerValue ];
  cms.b4 = d4; // send the KBRIGHT on cms.b4 (hi side -> right)
  
  // Throttle-UP						     w
  // Throttle-DOWN					     s
  
  timer( INTERVAL, d1, yOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( loTriggerValue - js2.a3 )) / yOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js2.a3 < loTriggerValue ];
  cms.b5 = d1; // send the w on cms.b5 (lo side -> forward)

  timer( INTERVAL, d2, yOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( js2.a3 - hiTriggerValue )) / yOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js2.a3 > hiTriggerValue ];
  cms.b6 = d2; // send the s on cms.b6 (hi side -> back)
  
  // Rudder-Yaw-RIGHT				     d
  // Rudder-Yaw-LEFT					   a
  
  timer( INTERVAL, d3, xOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( loTriggerValue - js3.a3 )) / xOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js3.a3 < loTriggerValue ];
  cms.b7 = d3; // send the d on cms.b7 (lo side -> left)

  timer( INTERVAL, d4, xOnTime, ((( loTriggerValue - ( js3.a3 - hiTriggerValue )) / xOffTime )) + 1 ) = [ js3.a3 > hiTriggerValue ];
  cms.b8 = d4; // send the a on cms.b8 (hi side -> right)
endScript


And it works pretty well. With the next gen of TM Programming software, will this be (I'm pretty sure it will) available? Or something like it?

Thanks...


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


#3082981 - 08/29/10 09:10 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Nutty]  
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jocko- Offline
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Georgetown, ON Canada
Originally Posted By: Nutty87th
Originally Posted By: jocko-

IMO they didn`t go this route making the Warthog a bit more jack-of-all-trades because the No. 1 customer to TM is the military. The public are just happy second bananas


That's absolutely not true. There is no special version for the military, and they buy them through the same channels as you and I. This is a HOTAS designed for simmers with a great deal of input from simmers.

Now I absolutely agree that having perpendicular rotaries on a throttle are highly desirable even in sims which don't have specific assignments for them. Hmmm .. I wonder if there's a way to mod the Warthog with a Cougar throttle grip. Now that would be awesome! wink

Nutty



Hi Nutty, always nice to see posts from you. I guess I could have been a little clearer, I never said the military would receive a "special version", I assume it too will get exactly what the public gets, just as the USAF did with the Cougar (at least that what my Cougar box says). It will be a valuable addition to military A-10C fixed based trainers because it so closely resembles the real deal.

My post above has more to do with wondering about TM's motivation to once again offer a HOTAS specific to only one aircraft type. Some thoughts:

I still have fond memories of my Mk I TM stick and WCS throttle. The throttle was generic and the B-8 style grip was the universal jet stick from the 50s into the 70s so it complemented any sim I played on my red hot 486... wink

Not long after I bought my Cougar years ago a buddy came over to see the new toys while I was playing Warbirds or IL-2 or something and our conversation went like this...

"What's A/R DISC mean?"

"Dunno."

"What about ANT ELEV?"

"Dunno. I don't know anything about F-16s"

"Why'd you buy an F-16 stick and throttle?"

"Because of all the buttons and the programming, I don't play Falcon so the stencils are wasted on me."

Now, I will happily use my WH playing DCS: A-10C, as well as Rise of Flight, FSX, AH2, Black Shark, LOMAC, etc. but all those nifty lit up switch titles won't mean much outside of the A-10 cockpit. So that's why I assumed military interest was what TM had in mind when the decision was made to specifically model the A-10C HOTAS system rather than a more generic one which could also be used by virtual Eagle and Hornet drivers as well. I wasn't one of the many simmers polled during the genesis of this product but I bet the average opinions were about dual throttles, better gimbals and better pots, not "We all want an A-10C this time".

Don't get me wrong, as I said above I can't wait to get my hands on the WH and I am very happy to see this long awaited resurgence in high end HOTAS gear. Any hands-on reports I've read on this and other forums about the WH have only increased the drool rate. It's been a lovely hot summer here in Ontario but each day I think more and more about September biggrin

While Logitech and Saitek did take the more "generic" road when designing their offerings I have watched the forums and based on customers' reviews I'm sticking with TM (again), even if the switches directly below the throttles won't mean as much in FSX or DCS:BS or whatever. Really, even in DCS: A-10C, once the engines are started I can't see ever needing to touch anything on the throttle base forward of the autopilot panel again until I'm back on terra firma, at least in normal ops.

TM needs to make a plug 'n play landing gear lever, even doing circles and bumps at Nellis it'd be used more often than the APU start switch wink


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3082987 - 08/29/10 09:32 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Nutty Offline
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Bristol, England
Hiya Jocko,

I think in this case they were looking to model it closely after a known setup. I agree that there's a good argument for producing a HOTAS specific to our needs as simmers that doesn't necessarily imitate what's in a particular aircraft. I have to say though I do like the idea of a Cougar grip on a Warthog throttle. That would be simming nirvana for me in many respects! wink

I'm going to have a closer look at that sometime ....

Cheers

Nutty


James "Nutty" Hallows
ViperDrivers
#3082990 - 08/29/10 09:36 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Nutty Offline
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Bristol, England
@531 Ghost: Sorry but I'm never going to comment on the programming and the scripting. I'll leave that to others. I've no interest in getting back into that online again with all that goes along with it. I'm just a simmer again and intend to keep it that way now.

Cheers

James


James "Nutty" Hallows
ViperDrivers
#3083002 - 08/29/10 10:06 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Sep 2002
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531 Ghost Offline
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Okay James. Fair 'nuff. Thanks.


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


#3083210 - 08/30/10 08:09 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Nutty]  
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Brandano Offline
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Caput Mundi (well, it used to ...
Originally Posted By: Nutty87th
Hmmm .. I wonder if there's a way to mod the Warthog with a Cougar throttle grip. Now that would be awesome! wink


http://www.dirkfassbender.de/how_to_make_a_joystick_grip.html

Goes without saying that the same approach works for throttle grips too
Sourcing the potentiometer with center detent and the pushbutton potentiometer with center detent might be a bit harder. I'd use rotary encoders for both, mapped to buttons and handled via software

#3083344 - 08/30/10 02:59 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Brandano]  
Joined: Jun 2007
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Ltfransky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Brandano
Originally Posted By: Nutty87th
Hmmm .. I wonder if there's a way to mod the Warthog with a Cougar throttle grip. Now that would be awesome! wink


http://www.dirkfassbender.de/how_to_make_a_joystick_grip.html

Goes without saying that the same approach works for throttle grips too
Sourcing the potentiometer with center detent and the pushbutton potentiometer with center detent might be a bit harder. I'd use rotary encoders for both, mapped to buttons and handled via software


There is one big draw back to that method. It relies on access to the real aircraft. I've been trying for a while to get access to a CF-188 (my brother is a ground tech) so I could copy the throttle, but so far, it's a no go.


Please Heatware Me!

Ours is not to reason why. Ours is to do or die.
Tennyson

I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..
Gillespie Magee, RCAF
#3083589 - 08/30/10 08:48 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Aug 2007
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Brandano Offline
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Brandano  Offline
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Caput Mundi (well, it used to ...
Actually it doesn't really matter how you obtain the first positive, you could just sculpt it out of plasticine. Getting a rough from the original helps with dimension accuracy, but in theory you can obtain the same results with a good number of pictures. Also, getting access to a Thrustmaster TQS isn't all that hard

#3083822 - 08/31/10 02:56 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: May 2001
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jocko- Offline
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Georgetown, ON Canada
I've been thinking a lot about Corsair8X's idea to add a rotary to the WH throttle and as I know nothing about electronics maybe someone else could speak up. The F-15 has a rotary very similar in shape to the F-16 ANT ELEV one, mounted on the outboard side of the left throttle grip. Here's a picture from this site: http://aerotronicsllc.com/f15throttle.htm





If you look at the same throttle on the WH it looks very similar. I wonder if it would be possible to add a Cougar rotary to the WH by mounting it in the same spot... I imagine some bright spark would have to make the electronics for it and route the wiring through the throttle base to it's own USB connector, maybe it would just be a completely stand-alone axis that would still be seen by TARGET, but it could be attached to the throttle grip anyway.



if there's enough interior room available above the pinky toggle you could put a hole in the throttle grip and mount it up there like on the F-15.


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3083839 - 08/31/10 03:20 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Corsair8X]  
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jocko- Offline
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jocko-  Offline
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Georgetown, ON Canada
Originally Posted By: Corsair8X
I don't want to take my hand off the throttle to operate that "friction" axis. I've sort of relegated that in my head to landing gear.



That's a very good idea, and I bet TARGET will let you program that axis that way. With my luck though I'd snag my watch band on it or something and end up dropping the gear at 300 knots and damaging the airplane wink


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3083847 - 08/31/10 03:39 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Oct 2005
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Corsair8X Offline
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@jocko: the wiring challenges was why I was sort of thinking of having a rotary like on the Cougar but have it magnetically attached to the handle - and have it communicate via bluetooth. Have a receiver dongle attached to usb. Now, would that be part of Target? I suppose that would be unlikely. But perhaps it could be somehow seen as an HID controller with the correct programming. Then it would be just a simple axis that you could program with an xml file.

How much of all this stuff do I know? Well, I know what an xml file is. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's about it. Oh wait, I know what magnets are smile


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#3083915 - 08/31/10 07:58 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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jeroen Offline
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Would wiring be a problem? A pot needs only three wires.
You can even wire it in place of the friction axis.


2147483647 angels can dance on the point of a needle.
Add one and they will all turn into devils.
#3084006 - 08/31/10 02:14 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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If it's not connected to the Warthog throttle controller, it probably won't be seen by T.A.R.G.E.T. Not unless it accepts any DirectInput device, which I doubt.

I'd suggest making that rotary bound to the "friction" axis on the base and adding another switch on the base somewhere that switches between the rotary and the "friction" lever for controlling that particular axis.

If that were done, I'd especially appreciate it for IL-2, specifically elevator trim. Rotaries are quite useful for that, especially when trying to get a good, steady guns solution.

#3084375 - 09/01/10 12:40 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Oct 2005
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Corsair8X Offline
Dagestan, Dover, DMZ
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Yeah, my plan mainly revolved around it not being part of TARGET and instead just be it's own device. Maybe that limits it some, but better than nothing at all (I admit I'm being short-sighted on this but I'm just looking for Antenna control in an F-15).


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#3084647 - 09/01/10 02:32 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: citizen guod]  
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Doomer Offline
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Well, it's September...

Where's our stick?

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