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#3064312 - 07/31/10 06:28 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Ark]  
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NamelessPFG Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ark
Originally Posted By: UnderTheRadar
I pay $400 every year or 2 for a new GPU. My Cougar is what, 10 years old now?


In the grand scheme of things, it will be a bargain.


IMO, out of the box, the Cougar is somewhat of a POS. lol

My CH stick and throttle have never had an issue pots, needed modding, or required fixing of switches....and they were cheaper and a LOT more precise.

For looks, the Cougar all the way. Functionality, build quality, and price wise, my CH setup is a lot better than my Cougar (and I didn't even buy one of the early Cougars).

I won't lie and say that my Cougar hasn't had its quirks. The microstick is acting up a bit, the metal used is cheap zamac/zamak, the speedbrake and dogfight switch housings weren't aligned, and the paint is really rubbing off of the stick now, such that I'd really like to see it repainted.

But at one point, I had a CH Fighterstick, Pro Pedals, and DT225, all USB and thus Control Manager-compliant. The Pro Pedals developed a response issue with one of the toebrakes that would have its output spike a bit when moving the main rudder axis, but nothing too serious. They were all generally quite precise and the most programmable controllers on the market thanks to the Control Manager.

Nevertheless, I sold them. Why? Poor ergonomics (except for the DT225; that was just sold because it was lacking a scroll wheel, I needed money, and I didn't really play that much Marble Madness). The Pro Pedals were too closely spaced, and the Fighterstick dug into my palm in a way that the F-22 Pro or Cougar stick never did. And while I never owned one, I did also get to use the Flight Sim Yoke with three levers for throttle/prop pitch/mixture, and one of those levers had snapped off on one of them. Aside from that, it also dug into my palms kind of like the Fighterstick did. For something that could be used for hours at a time, I expect it to be comfortable, and that's what CH needs to work on.

The HOTAS Warthog is looking to bring the best of both worlds, if Guillemot/TM has really learned from their mistakes with the Cougar. TM ergonomics and refusal to omit things like the trigger's second stage and paddle switch, and CH durability and programmability (if T.A.R.G.E.T. delivers). I can't wait to get my hands on it and evaluate it for myself.

Last edited by NamelessPFG; 08/06/10 03:36 AM.
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#3064343 - 07/31/10 07:34 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Richardg]  
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Teej Offline
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Originally Posted By: Richardg
They're high on dope. The most I would even consider paying would be $299.


Your money, your choice.

The Cougar was priced over $300 upon release and for years afterwards. That was 10 years ago. Simply adjusting for inflation, if it was released today it would be well over $400. The Warthog is loaded with Hall sensors and pretty serious switch hardware.

In the 5-6 years I've flown my Cougar (which works as well now as it ever did) I've gone through several times its price in motherboards, processors, memory, GPU and monitors.


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#3064350 - 07/31/10 07:42 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: zcaa0g]  
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Teej Offline
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Originally Posted By: zcaa0g
Shoulder width is about right assuming that is the case with these pedals. No reason to be "spread eagle" like the Simpeds.


Shoulder width is fine with a side stick or desktop stick setup.

Not so great when trying to set up a rigid center-mount system that you have to wrap your legs around.


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#3064351 - 07/31/10 07:43 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: VTB_Lawndart]  
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Originally Posted By: VTB_Lawndart
Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
Only time will tell if the Warthog will live up to the hype/price tag. When this thing hits the street we'll know the real truth!


If you want to get an idea before it hits the streets, check out Ray's preview. The consensus among those of us who have tested it is very similar...


I generally agree with the reviews but when you use that as reason then someone attacks the review as fanboyism. Because TM only let fanboys test out there stuff rolleyes ............ right


Last edited by HitchHikingFlatlander; 07/31/10 07:43 PM.

I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3064393 - 07/31/10 09:39 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]  
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VTB_Lawndart Offline
Virtual Thunderbirds
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Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
Originally Posted By: VTB_Lawndart
Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
Only time will tell if the Warthog will live up to the hype/price tag. When this thing hits the street we'll know the real truth!


If you want to get an idea before it hits the streets, check out Ray's preview. The consensus among those of us who have tested it is very similar...


I generally agree with the reviews but when you use that as reason then someone attacks the review as fanboyism. Because TM only let fanboys test out there stuff rolleyes ............ right



Fanboys... hahaha O'boy, that'd be nice if true.

I'm simply sharing information in case anyone is interested.

We (the Virtual Thunderbirds) base our credibility and precision flying on us choosing to work with TM, and I have no problem telling others that's why - not the other way around. We wouldn't be continuing our partnership with TM if we weren't ready to put our NXT/FSSB/FCC modded Cougars in the closets to collect dust based on our experience thus far with the HOTAS Warthog.


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#3064394 - 07/31/10 09:40 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: UnderTheRadar]  
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Ark Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnderTheRadar
Originally Posted By: Ark


IMO, out of the box, the Cougar is somewhat of a POS. lol

My CH stick and throttle have never had an issue pots, needed modding, or required fixing of switches....and they were cheaper and a LOT more precise.

For looks, the Cougar all the way. Functionality, build quality, and price wise, my CH setup is a lot better than my Cougar (and I didn't even buy one of the early Cougars).



Your opinion and my experience are two different things. I am still using my original Cougar that I have had since they were released on the market. No mods, no problems. Rock solid dependable.

I came from F-16 FLCS/TQS. I used the Bob Church Mod Chips on that set. Used them for years. And before that it was the FCS and WCS...

I have plastic stuff I use for games but, for my sims, there is no going back. TM all the way!

I totally jinxed myself and my sticks are gonna die tonight smile



Fair enough. I'm not saying I have ever had an issue with my Cougar (outside of the stick movement feeling being just too heavy for me and some slack developing in the center), I am referring to TM Cougar reliability in general. However, despite the fact that my Cougar is working just fine (overall), my CH setup is still superior with regards to precision and price. It may not be for everybody due to the light springs and plastic construction, but it just flat out works and it is spot-on with regards to precision. It is actually sort of irritating since I can't really justify a new stick util this one breaks. LOL


Ark

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RIP Positive G
#3064933 - 08/01/10 08:10 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Ark]  
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HitchHikingFlatlander Offline
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Lawn Dart I'm on your side lol! I tend to mostly trust the impressions from community members. I was just pointing out the obvious pit falls. I think SimHQ and it's members/contributors in general always report things honestly and try to keep us informed. But some troll is always going to find a reason to say you guys are just part of TMs clever marketing plan.......... and that the X52, G940, cougar and etc..... all had fanboys. I for one am glad that we have community members that actually have one of these sticks and will honestly report on their impressions.

It's a discussion I know but most people are complaining that the cougar had problems or that the HOTAS is more than they're willing to pay (ie: too expensive). Personally I find that a little unfair, given the pricing isn't final and that the HOTAS hasn't been released to compare quality to the Cougar or any other controller for that matter.


I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3064995 - 08/01/10 09:21 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]  
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Squid_DK Offline
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Ark, thats kinda funny I have preordered the TM Warthog, even though my CH setup (Which has never given me any grief) is still in perfect working order, fortunately my wife has given me the ok to upgrade as long as I will buy her a copy of DCS A-10C (a no brainer here since we have had some fun with BS on LAN here.

Staffan


I've been behind before and still managed to loose
#3064996 - 08/01/10 09:26 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Squid_DK]  
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HitchHikingFlatlander Offline
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Squid YOU ARE a lucky man. I guess that's how the Danish roll! Although I don't have room for two simpits nor do I want to share my projection display!


I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3065006 - 08/01/10 09:38 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]  
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Corsair8X Offline
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Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
It's a discussion I know but most people are complaining that the cougar had problems or that the HOTAS is more than they're willing to pay (ie: too expensive). Personally I find that a little unfair, given the pricing isn't final and that the HOTAS hasn't been released to compare quality to the Cougar or any other controller for that matter.


I don't have a problem with the pricing, but I am going to be wary of the Warthog based on my experience with the Cougar. I personally feel that I got burned with that purchase and the money I spent is a little much for the bookends that I use them as now.

However, does that mean I write this new offering completely? Obviously that would be foolish. Am I going to be an early adopter? Not on your life. I'll see what reports are after the production units come out and people have used them for a bit. I don't doubt the people that have used them. But I don't think these are production units. After my Cougar, TM will be a company that I approach with caution now.

I hope they are good and sound. I would like very much to be able to use them. I just want no surprises this time around.


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#3065090 - 08/01/10 11:31 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Squid_DK]  
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Ark Offline
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Originally Posted By: Squid_DK
Ark, thats kinda funny I have preordered the TM Warthog, even though my CH setup (Which has never given me any grief) is still in perfect working order, fortunately my wife has given me the ok to upgrade as long as I will buy her a copy of DCS A-10C (a no brainer here since we have had some fun with BS on LAN here.

Staffan


I just bought a GTX 480 so justifying another $400+ purchase would be a toughy. My wife is more into other non-sim games so she doesn't get the whole joystick "thing". haha

Havign said that, she told me to just buy it, even after I told her it was going to be $500+ (according to that link earlier). I just don't see the need for it right now when all of my other equipment still works just fine.


Ark

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RIP Positive G
#3065291 - 08/02/10 05:45 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Corsair8X]  
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VTB_Lawndart Offline
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Originally Posted By: Corsair8X
I don't have a problem with the pricing, but I am going to be wary of the Warthog based on my experience with the Cougar. I personally feel that I got burned with that purchase and the money I spent is a little much for the bookends that I use them as now.

However, does that mean I write this new offering completely? Obviously that would be foolish. Am I going to be an early adopter? Not on your life. I'll see what reports are after the production units come out and people have used them for a bit. I don't doubt the people that have used them. But I don't think these are production units. After my Cougar, TM will be a company that I approach with caution now.

I hope they are good and sound. I would like very much to be able to use them. I just want no surprises this time around.


That's the same approach I'd take too if I was in the same shoes! We've been vary about what to expect since most of us have been using FFSB/hall sensor modded Cougars, but our expectations have been exceeded in every way possible with the HW thus far. It's not fair (to the HW) to be compared to the Cougar based on history, but by all means I understand why everyone makes that comparison (as they should). All I'm saying is, this is a completely different animal and one that I'd be very surprised if it doesn't live up to its hype!


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#3065340 - 08/02/10 08:20 AM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: VTB_Lawndart]  
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Doomer Offline
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Well, I hope the negative reaction to the price doesen't make Guillemot to cut corners in the manufacturing process in order to bring the cost down...

#3065424 - 08/02/10 01:06 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Doomer]  
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Lancelot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Doomer
Well, I hope the negative reaction to the price doesen't make Guillemot to cut corners in the manufacturing process in order to bring the cost down...


+1.

Give it time, and even if its pricey, if that hardware is as good as all previews are claiming, with time lot of people that find it pricey will buy it if they are interested.


Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!
#3065573 - 08/02/10 04:55 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: NamelessPFG]  
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Cali Offline
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Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
Originally Posted By: Ark
Originally Posted By: UnderTheRadar
I pay $400 every year or 2 for a new GPU. My Cougar is what, 10 years old now?


In the grand scheme of things, it will be a bargain.


IMO, out of the box, the Cougar is somewhat of a POS. lol

My CH stick and throttle have never had an issue pots, needed modding, or required fixing of switches....and they were cheaper and a LOT more precise.

For looks, the Cougar all the way. Functionality, build quality, and price wise, my CH setup is a lot better than my Cougar (and I didn't even buy one of the early Cougars).

I won't lie and say that my Cougar hasn't had its quirks. The microswitch is acting up a bit, the metal used is cheap zamac/zamak, the speedbrake and dogfight switch housings weren't aligned, and the paint is really rubbing off of the stick now, such that I'd really like to see it repainted.

But at one point, I had a CH Fighterstick, Pro Pedals, and DT225, all USB and thus Control Manager-compliant. The Pro Pedals developed a response issue with one of the toebrakes that would have its output spike a bit when moving the main rudder axis, but nothing too serious. They were all generally quite precise and the most programmable controllers on the market thanks to the Control Manager.

Nevertheless, I sold them. Why? Poor ergonomics (except for the DT225; that was just sold because it was lacking a scroll wheel, I needed money, and I didn't really play that much Marble Madness). The Pro Pedals were too closely spaced, and the Fighterstick dug into my palm in a way that the F-22 Pro or Cougar stick never did. And while I never owned one, I did also get to use the Flight Sim Yoke with three levers for throttle/prop pitch/mixture, and one of those levers had snapped off on one of them. Aside from that, it also dug into my palms kind of like the Fighterstick did. For something that could be used for hours at a time, I expect it to be comfortable, and that's what CH needs to work on.

The HOTAS Warthog is looking to bring the best of both worlds, if Guillemot/TM has really learned from their mistakes with the Cougar. TM ergonomics and refusal to omit things like the trigger's second stage and paddle switch, and CH durability and programmability (if T.A.R.G.E.T. delivers). I can't wait to get my hands on it and evaluate it for myself.


If they learned, then why is the pots on the Cougar still crap? 10 years and you still need to mod it, but at least they fixed the DG switch and misalignment issue. I have always liked the cougar, but at the time couldn't see paying over $200+ and having to spend another $200+ to fix it. I very hope the WH is as good as the tester have said it is.


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#3065705 - 08/02/10 08:01 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Cali]  
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I certainly am interested, but I also am a little skeptical. And as such, like some, I will not be an early adopter.
I wonder what kind of warranty covers the Warthog. If it's the regular 1 year warranty, then I am twice as skeptical.

New, innovative gear should by no means be cheap, but I wonder if people will get their money's worth.

If it weren't for the ingenuity of the community, the (modded) Cougar would never have the reputation of reliability it has. The success of the Cougar rests largely on the shoulders of the developers of the different mods, and not on TM/Guillemot.
In this day and age companies try to increase their profit margins, but at what cost? At the consumers' expense? The priors with the Cougar doesn't raise confidence. And if there is something I would loathe, then it would be to spend $500 on a set of controllers and then keep paying $200, $100, $50 to improve a design flaw.

Paint chipping off the stick, buttons malfunctioning, pieces breaking in a product of this caliber should be inadmissible. Those are reasons why I prefer to err on the side of caution and wait, as well.

But as I previously said, I'd love to peek into the insides of the WH.

#3067644 - 08/05/10 06:02 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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Cap_Loz Offline
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I can't help but but in on the side of the Cougar.
I am also one that has had my Cougar from launch and have had absolutely Zero problems with it.
No paint flaking, button breaking pots spiking at all.
Maybe I was just lucky but on that experience I will buy the Warthog in a flash, and relegate my Cougar to being a source for my RCS (which did spike like crazy until I bought the CubPilot Hall mod)
which in terms of size and feel are unbeatable. Just wish I could mod them for toe brakes.


An old pilot is one who can remember when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.
#3067659 - 08/05/10 06:15 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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Nutty Offline
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Originally Posted By: aRareKindOfMonster
The success of the Cougar rests largely on the shoulders of the developers of the different mods, and not on TM/Guillemot.


Not at all. I'd put the number of modded Cougars at around 3% of Cougars out there.

Nutty


James "Nutty" Hallows
ViperDrivers
#3067782 - 08/05/10 09:20 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Nutty]  
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Villicus Offline
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Years ago I wanted to get a Cougar, but just couldn't bring myself to spend that much money on something that generated so many complaints. I'm taking a leap of faith and will be buying the Warthog when it comes out hoping that it will be better made and supported than the Cougar was.


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#3067787 - 08/05/10 09:30 PM Re: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread [Re: Nutty]  
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Reschke Offline
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I would say the amount of modded Cougars might be one or two points higher MAYBE but I also had one from launch and recently just sold it to a guy. I had zero problems with the stick; the throttle flash got me with the dead pot in it but other than that not a single major issue.

As for the Warthog...that is what I sold my Cougar and modded RCS pedals for...the start up cash.


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