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#3051360 - 07/13/10 06:01 PM Career Mode  
Joined: Dec 2000
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Brigstock Offline
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Brigstock  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,118
London, England
I noticed Jason mentioned a new campaign mode was being developed, an ambitious project he doesn't want to comment too much on at the moment.
However I was wondering what are the chances of getting the current set up tweaked to be more playable/enjoyable.
I've have just rediscovered the joy of offline simming after spending all my time online with IL2. I'm using a mix of the already included Career mode and Pat's Campaign generator. My feeling is both need a little tweaking.

Pat's Campaign.
Pro's
Realistic (as much as they can be) plane match ups.
Squadron Skins
Mass dogfights with even numbers on each side.

Con's
Always nearly 1-2 hours long if played through in real time
Flight lead always seems to tear off at full throttle shooting for the moon.

In Game Carrer mode
Pro's
Short 30minute to 1 hour missions.
Flight lead show a little respect on the throttle and alt.

Con's
No skins
Poor planeset
Nearly always outnumbering the enemy.

I'm currently on 2 parallel Alb DII careers. One with Pat's DCG and one with the in game Carrer mode. I prefer Pat's - just - because it's feels more realistic. Fighting N17's and DH2's in my DII. With Squadron skins showing and some very challenging dogfights. The problem is that it is outside of the RoF GUI and I have to plan when to play.

The ingame career mode is good for a quick mission or two and it is in game with medals awarded and displayed on the main page. The missions are quick, normally a quick jaunt to the front, a short dogfight and home for tea. But I'm getting fed up of arriving at the front to find a flight of DVII's and DR1's attacking a pair of N17's or turning up in my DII to fight a flight of SE5s.

I'd like to see a mix of the two campaigns rolled into one. The pro's of Pats DCG partnered with the simpler flight plans of the in game affair.

I think I read that Pat thinks it is too difficult for his generator to generate shorter missions. Is it too difficult for the ingame generator to be updated with a few of the features in Pat's DCG?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3052266 - 07/14/10 08:21 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Brigstock]  
Joined: Dec 2008
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WWBrian Offline
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WWBrian  Offline
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I just want it to closely resemble RED BARON's carrer...

...but then again, I realize how much that is actually asking for.

One can dream.

pilot


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

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#3052349 - 07/14/10 09:51 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: WWBrian]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 457
Masaq Offline
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Masaq  Offline
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UK
Originally Posted By: WWBrian
I just want it to closely resemble RED BARON's carrer...

...but then again, I realize how much that is actually asking for.

One can dream.

pilot


Yeah, it's be pretty hard on your family if three years after first purchasing Rise of Flight, an Australian came over to your house and fired a .303 into your chest biggrin 50cal

#3052360 - 07/14/10 10:02 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Masaq]  
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Posts: 1,092
HotTom Offline
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HotTom  Offline
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Posts: 1,092
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Falcon 4.0 had the best campaigns ever.

Even in 1998 when it debuted.

You had a whole war going on around you.

I hope the RoF folks look to it for inspiration.

HT


Exceptional engineering...and a large hammer to make it fit!
#3052418 - 07/14/10 11:36 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: HotTom]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 793
PatrickAWilson Offline
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PatrickAWilson  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 793
Tx
Hi BrigStock:

I am working on an air start feature that will allow players to shorten missions. Basically if you enable air start it will set you up 10km from the target waypoint, with other flights moved along for a similar distance. Good for quick starts.

While I am at it I will try reducing waypoint speed to see what happens.

One tip - disable machine guns and scrambles to improve performance.

As for Neoqb's campaign, as long as they continue to improve it will get there. Then I can stop coding and start playing smile.

#3052420 - 07/14/10 11:41 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
Joined: Jan 2007
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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PatrickAWilson  Offline
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Posts: 793
Tx
There are lots of good campaign engines out there. One thing to remember about WWI is that ground attack was a very limited role, especially for scouts. The key to WWI aviation was always recon - enabling it and stopping it. Everything else was a side show.

With that in mind, the sort of "destroy this target to advance the war effort" campaign that works very well in other sims (IL2, BoB, Falcon, etc.) IMHO will not do as well in a WWI sim. If destroying ground targets is the key to success, that will create very unrealistic bordering on silly missions. It has to be "protect the recons while they ..." or "protect the arty spotters while they ..." .

#3052638 - 07/15/10 09:06 AM Re: Career Mode [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,618
Ming_EAF19 Offline
Babelfish Immune
Ming_EAF19  Offline
Babelfish Immune
Veteran

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,618
London
side show

Later in the war the task was to harry and destroy the enemy on the ground from fighter aircraft, strafing trenches and so on, these voices from the Sound Archive at the Imperial War Museum on events around October/November 1918

Quote:
The 1st Pursuit Group was ordered by Mitchell to patrol at less than 2000ft, and any pilot above that altitude would be court-martialled. We were to strafe the infantry, we were to protect our balloons and troops... after a few weeks of this it led to a nervous breakdown: shaking and in tears, cursing like hell, tears of anger not of fear - until the doctor ordered me to take a rest. I was ordered back.

Lieutenant Ralph O'Neill, 147 Aero Squadron, 2nd Pursuit Group
Reference: 'Aces Falling' by Peter Hart Page 334

Quote:
We went out on a squadron sweep and found a long straight road filled with retreating German supply trains. We saw horse-drawn artillery, motor trucks, infantry and other military equipment of one kind or another. We formed a big circle and as we went down this road, we fired our machine guns and dropped our 25lb bombs. When we got through with that it was one unbelievable scene of chaos, with dead horses, lorries and dead soldiers all over the road. As I went down the last time to use up what was left of my ammunition and bombs, the two planes in front of me collided.

Lieutenant Richmond Viall, 46 Squadron
Reference: 'Aces Falling' by Peter Hart Page 344

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#3052661 - 07/15/10 10:27 AM Re: Career Mode [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 587
MIG77 Offline
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MIG77  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 587
Finland
Im sure that new career mode is going to be much improvement to old one. Just look QMB and how good it eventually ended up.


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#3052725 - 07/15/10 01:35 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: MIG77]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,255
Frankyboy Offline
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Frankyboy  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,255
indeed Ming !
the airwar, espacially for the scouts, changed a lot from early 1916 to 1918 !

when the German started their springoffensive in 1918 , the british scout squadrons were deep involved to stop the german advance.

i now have read all 3 volumes of Peter Harts book about WW1 aircombat , Somme, Bloddy April and Aces faaling (spring 1918). They clearly show the development.

anyway, the main task, beginning at least with the somme campaign, for the british scouts was in general to build a screen behind the german lines to catch the german scouts before they could get in contact with the british corps-planes over the lines.

and yes, even in 1916 the RFC sent its vulnerable BE2s , the more tough 1 1/2 Strutters and Fe2s to bomb german facilities behind the lines.

Chapeaux to all that brave twoseater pilots (ok, a Be2 was flown singleseat when on bombing tour wink ) !!!


JG53*Frankyboy
Flugzeugführer 8./JG53 "Pik As"
HQ_III./JG53
#3052747 - 07/15/10 02:05 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Brigstock]  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 509
Feathered_IV Offline
Member
Feathered_IV  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 509
Australia
Originally Posted By: Brigstock


Pat's Campaign.
Pro's
Realistic (as much as they can be) plane match ups.
Squadron Skins
Mass dogfights with even numbers on each side.

Con's
Always nearly 1-2 hours long if played through in real time
Flight lead always seems to tear off at full throttle shooting for the moon.


Couple of further cons to the Pat campaigns are time compression, which seems somehow disabled or greatly reduced. Slow motion effect, when plane numbers or types number more than a dozen. And wind, which cannot be disabled to save cpu cycles. The effort put into this generator is amazing, however I'm unable to play it with settings which allow for a convincing atmosphere.

#3052857 - 07/15/10 04:54 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,623
Mogster Offline
Hotshot
Mogster  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,623
England
Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
One thing to remember about WWI is that ground attack was a very limited role, especially for scouts. The key to WWI aviation was always recon - enabling it and stopping it. Everything else was a side show.


Reading Wiged Victory, Yeates and his Camel jockeys seem to have done plenty of ground attack, strafing and with bombs. Camels (and Dolphins??) seem to have been tasked with ground attack while SE5 squadrons flew top cover.

I agree about recon and stopping recon being most important especially pre mid 1917. However late in the war things seem to have changed with the RAF scouts in particular taking a more direct role against ground forces.


WAS C2D 8500 3.16ghz, 285gtx 1gb, 4gig ram, XP NOW Win7 64, I5 2500K, SSD, 8Gig ram, GTX 570
#3052881 - 07/15/10 05:33 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,118
Brigstock Offline
Senior Member
Brigstock  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,118
London, England
Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Hi BrigStock:

I am working on an air start feature that will allow players to shorten missions. Basically if you enable air start it will set you up 10km from the target waypoint, with other flights moved along for a similar distance. Good for quick starts.

While I am at it I will try reducing waypoint speed to see what happens.

One tip - disable machine guns and scrambles to improve performance.

As for Neoqb's campaign, as long as they continue to improve it will get there. Then I can stop coding and start playing smile.


Hi Pat

On the whole I prefer your campaign over the NeoqB version. However I would like to see more action local to my home drome rather than airstarts. I would also like it if the lead would not be a full throttle all the time. For example in RoF Career the DII lead cruises on 13,000rpm whereas the Pat Wilson Generated lead will be screwing every last ounce of rpm out of his machine and I'll spend most of the mission trying to catch up and perhaps some lower alt flights too, say 5000-10000ft.
That said, I have to add that I love the missions once the action starts. The unpredictability of the missions, there is nothing repetitive in there. I like the fact that when I'm in an early DII I don’t meet SE5s or Spad XIII's. I like the fact that my flight will meet equal numbers or even more of the enemy in a dogfight. Some of my most memorable "sweaty hands" experiences in RoF have been in a Pat Wilson mission.
The Neoqb career fails miserably there. I'm in an early 1917 DII campaign and quite often find myself in 8 v 2 dogfights, with DVII, DR1's Spads, etc. Bit of an immersion killer that.

#3053000 - 07/15/10 08:30 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Brigstock]  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Dart  Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
I pull the career missions into the FMB and "pump them up."

That way squadrons have custom skins and there is a LOT more going on.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#3053411 - 07/16/10 11:54 AM Re: Career Mode [Re: Dart]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,316
Boelcke Offline
Member
Boelcke  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,316
Düsseldorf Germany
After a long break with RoF i tried it again with the career mode ... started with my Fokker D III in june 1917 and encountered - Sopwith Dolphins! What a mess ...


skins and campaigns by Boelcke:

http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com
#3053479 - 07/16/10 01:44 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Boelcke]  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 509
Feathered_IV Offline
Member
Feathered_IV  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 509
Australia
Really? Where'd you get a Fokker DIII from? If that is a reflection of your aircraft recognition, I'm surprised a Sopwith Dolphin bothered you at all.

#3053505 - 07/16/10 02:16 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Boelcke]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 775
MJMORROW Offline
NEWGUY
MJMORROW  Offline
NEWGUY
Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 775
Originally Posted By: Boelcke
After a long break with RoF i tried it again with the career mode ... started with my Fokker D III in june 1917 and encountered - Sopwith Dolphins! What a mess ...


I am glad that you came back to the community. My name is MJ. I fly in multiplayer under NEWGUY (or Besenyei lately) Please say hi , if you run into me online! Happy hunting!


Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3053765 - 07/16/10 06:43 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: WWBrian]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,214
Avimimus Offline
Two-speed Five-Blade Fan
Avimimus  Offline
Two-speed Five-Blade Fan
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,214
Canada
Originally Posted By: WWBrian
I just want it to closely resemble RED BARON's carrer...

...but then again, I realize how much that is actually asking for.

One can dream.

pilot


Red Baron or Red Baron II/3d?

I liked the original! It shouldn't be too hard to code.

My wishes would be:
- Fully offline
- Realistic aircraft and altitudes for the time period
- Lots of unskilled cannon fodder, but a few very good enemy pilots (super marksmen etc.).
- An unpredictable number of opponents (sometimes outnumbering, sometimes outnumbered and fleeing). Preferably more than one flight in the air (chance of encountering additional enemy fighters part way through the fight).

So, there is nothing too demanding to reach such a dream.

I agree with the point about long flight times. I'd like to fly more campaigns, but I rarely have the time to sit down for more than fifteen minutes (which means I wind up using the QMBs a lot).

#3054185 - 07/17/10 10:41 AM Re: Career Mode [Re: Feathered_IV]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,316
Boelcke Offline
Member
Boelcke  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,316
Düsseldorf Germany
Originally Posted By: Feathered_IV
Really? Where'd you get a Fokker DIII from?


you know that you can buy planes like the DIII online? that´s where or how i got this plane



Originally Posted By: Feathered_IV
Really? If that is a reflection of your aircraft recognition, I'm surprised a Sopwith Dolphin bothered you at all.


are you kidding? a Dolphin in june 1917? it bothered me cause it´s totaly nuts.


EDIT: ok i see - Albatros DIII not Fokker DIII, my fault. How could i be so stupid? And i understand that i am an absolutly dumphead and you are the godfather of aerial warfare history, so go on with your ironic nitpicking if it makes feel you better.

Last edited by Boelcke; 07/17/10 11:10 AM.

skins and campaigns by Boelcke:

http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com
#3054195 - 07/17/10 11:38 AM Re: Career Mode [Re: Boelcke]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,623
Mogster Offline
Hotshot
Mogster  Offline
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Posts: 6,623
England
I think there's always going to be a divide between people that want a realistic campaign and people that want a fast action campaign. I'm not sure how Neoqb get over this apart from providing 2 different campaigns which is probably out of the question.

Realistic mission length is probably 2 hours, realistic altitude probably involves at least 15 mins of climbing. How many people have the time patience for just those two conditions? Realism doesn't allow intercepts of Central scouts over your airfield much. The RAF seem to have been, in 1917-18 anyway crossing the lines to engage German scouts that were almost always stayed on their own side in large formations. You read pilot accounts and they talk about almost always being out numbered, often 2:1 being engaged by large formations of German aircraft. This was because of the aggressive RAF tactics of always pushing towards the Germans, the Central side were happy to defend.

Is the above compatible with what most people want from a campaign though?


WAS C2D 8500 3.16ghz, 285gtx 1gb, 4gig ram, XP NOW Win7 64, I5 2500K, SSD, 8Gig ram, GTX 570
#3054202 - 07/17/10 12:13 PM Re: Career Mode [Re: Mogster]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,474
Biggles07 Offline
Member
Biggles07  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,474
Newcastle Upon Tyne, England.
Originally Posted By: Mogster
I think there's always going to be a divide between people that want a realistic campaign and people that want a fast action campaign. I'm not sure how Neoqb get over this apart from providing 2 different campaigns which is probably out of the question.

Realistic mission length is probably 2 hours, realistic altitude probably involves at least 15 mins of climbing. How many people have the time patience for just those two conditions? Realism doesn't allow intercepts of Central scouts over your airfield much. The RAF seem to have been, in 1917-18 anyway crossing the lines to engage German scouts that were almost always stayed on their own side in large formations. You read pilot accounts and they talk about almost always being out numbered, often 2:1 being engaged by large formations of German aircraft. This was because of the aggressive RAF tactics of always pushing towards the Germans, the Central side were happy to defend.

Is the above compatible with what most people want from a campaign though?




Realistic mission length is probably 2 hours, realistic altitude probably involves at least 15 mins of climbing. How many people have the time patience for just those two conditions?

Exactly, real life does of course take precedent. You do have a life, eh people? Smash

Go fishing, good fae thi Soul. exitstageleft


"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".

Sir Winston Churchill
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