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#3016420 - 05/22/10 09:26 AM Little name change  
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Flexman Offline
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Until we get business with Boeing sorted out, use of trademarks relating to Apache, Longbow AH64D, the project has dropped "Longbow" from the game title. The forum name has been changed to reflect this.


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#3016600 - 05/22/10 07:20 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Flexman]  
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Executioner Offline
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Pffffft - admit it - you just wanted to be higher up the scale than EECH and Black Shark wink

Martin...

#3017542 - 05/24/10 10:30 AM Re: Little name change [Re: Executioner]  
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Flexman Offline
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If it were true I'd be much happier :/

On the plus side there's less confusion with Janes Longbow.

#3017582 - 05/24/10 12:42 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Flexman]  
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I hope you guys get things sorted out with them...


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#3018646 - 05/25/10 06:20 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Bushmaster78FS]  
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Geez I would think the Apache Indian tribe might have something to say...TO BOEING as would any hunters using English style Longbows...or maybe they settled up already.

I guess it is no more ridiculous than Apple suing the pants off of anyone using ..pad or ..pod or the letter 'i' in their product names. I'm surprised they don't make grocery stores change their signs to "SORT OF ROUND RED FRUITS"


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#3019039 - 05/26/10 11:51 AM Re: Little name change [Re: Flexman]  
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Phew, I was worried you had fallen foul of SimHQ admins for some reason, and they had deleted this forum! If it's only those softies at Boeing we have to worry about...


Foot down, head down...
#3019235 - 05/26/10 04:11 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Daveyraveygravey]  
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This is nothing new. The plastic model industry went through the same thing a few years back. Boeing and a few other aircraft corporations wanted royalties from the plastic model industries on model kits. Don't know how that turned out, but makes you wonder what bean counter sat around all day coming up with this ideal rolleyes


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
#3019274 - 05/26/10 04:56 PM Re: Little name change [Re: godzilla1985]  
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I remember bumping into this a few times before. I think because the aircraft was created with tax money the look of it and such are in the public domain and I think the designation is as well. I think the area where it got a little grayer is in regard to the nickname. Of course this was years ago and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I too forget what happened regarding the model industry but I think it would be worth tracking down. I'm sorry to hear they're still being a pain about this. I don't remember anything special having to be done for the Austin group to use "Longbow" but I was focused on other things during that time. You might want to search in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim to see if there were any discussions about this going on. They haven't bee the most consistent in their defense on such stuff but even if you could win a court battle the cost would suck.

Elf

#3019308 - 05/26/10 05:52 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Daveyraveygravey]  
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citizen guod Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daveyraveygravey
Phew, I was worried you had fallen foul of SIMHQ admins for some reason, and they had deleted this forum! If it's only those softies at Boeing we have to worry about...


Oh no, we are not in the least at odds with Richard, AD and the dev group. They are being wisely proactive IMO.

No story to tell, and their efforts up-front are to ensure Combat Helo continues to finish, and to ensure there will not be any story by avoiding possible questions later.

Elf... I think we're seeing the difference in two decades of corporate law and assets management. Intellectual property concerns have changed substantially in that time. Probably helped having the Jane's name behind the EA/Origins titles to gain credibility. wink

No, I'm not an attorney, or legal advisor either. Just familiar with some of this due to the "day job".


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#3019742 - 05/27/10 11:59 AM Re: Little name change [Re: citizen guod]  
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AD Offline
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Trademarks, I believe, are only held within categories. Meaning that 2 companies can trade products under the same name, aslong as those products don't belong in the same category. There are literally tons of companies out there marketing products under the name Apache or Longbow.

Interestingly I found this on the US patent and trademark office website.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=4002:f715be.2.30

This AH-64 Apache Longbow trademark under the category of computer games appears to be abandoned/dead.

EDIT: It appears the link above doesn't work because of session management. Here's a copy/paste of the text content from the page.

Click to reveal..
Word Mark AH-64 APACHE LONGBOW
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Computer game programs and computer software programs for use in flight simulation
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78195321
Filing Date December 17, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition February 17, 2004
Owner (APPLICANT) BOEING MANAGEMENT COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE 2201 SEAL BEACH BOULEVARD, M/C 110-SB70 SEAL BEACH CALIFORNIA 907401515
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date November 12, 2005


Cheers

Last edited by AD; 05/27/10 12:24 PM.

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#3019775 - 05/27/10 01:02 PM Re: Little name change [Re: citizen guod]  
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Originally Posted By: guod
Originally Posted By: Daveyraveygravey
Phew, I was worried you had fallen foul of SIMHQ admins for some reason, and they had deleted this forum! If it's only those softies at Boeing we have to worry about...


Oh no, we are not in the least at odds with Richard, AD and the dev group. They are being wisely proactive IMO.



Just my attempt at being funny, didn't mean to cause a response!


Foot down, head down...
#3021056 - 05/29/10 12:44 PM Re: Little name change [Re: AD]  
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Bushmaster78FS Offline
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From a military perspective, just want to comment on the other title, "Operation Counter Insurgency" is kind of cheesy guys. I am just commenting though, no hard feelings. It is the early stages though, I know things change.


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#3021076 - 05/29/10 01:45 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Bushmaster78FS]  
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Flexman Offline
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Some of the dialogue is pretty cheesy too.

The OCI tag was one of those things that occured late at night when you're mocking up something in 5 minutes to fill a void, then never gets questioned or changed. But it never appears on any signed-off work or our websites except on WIP screen-shots.

Got some suggestions? Fire away smile


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Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3021144 - 05/29/10 04:12 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Recluse]  
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Originally Posted By: Recluse
Geez I would think the Apache Indian tribe might have something to say...TO BOEING as would any hunters using English style Longbows...or maybe they settled up already.

I guess it is no more ridiculous than Apple suing the pants off of anyone using ..pad or ..pod or the letter 'i' in their product names. I'm surprised they don't make grocery stores change their signs to "SORT OF ROUND RED FRUITS"


Lmao, hilarious recluse, but true!! lol


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My Sims: Jane's F/A-18, Pacific Fighters, Enemy Engaged 1.13, Falcon AF




#3021158 - 05/29/10 04:34 PM Re: Little name change [Re: CHADDOGG]  
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Love the "welcome to afghanistan" video, i really hope this project doesnt fall through the cracks, we need a new chopper sim besides DCS. One thing i noticed is the desert textures look a lot like the ones that are in EECH all-mods upgrades, is this true? Anyway, keep up the good work, im definately following this one wink


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My Sims: Jane's F/A-18, Pacific Fighters, Enemy Engaged 1.13, Falcon AF




#3021187 - 05/29/10 05:36 PM Re: Little name change [Re: CHADDOGG]  
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Flexman Offline
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Desert textures are from a commercial texture pack, the terrain is GPU driven and basically your 3D card is like a dedicated terrain processor, so it can get a little hot. But the system also limits us to 5 basic layers with variable blending. It's hard to tweak to make something that looks good up close as well as in the middle distance. Dave tweaked them a little.

Glad you liked the video, it's out of date already with the MPDs now running and changes to the terrain.

On the topic of trademark, I shoot an English Longbow in real-life (60lb pull weight which makes me a whimp) so it puzzles me too. But I'm no lawyer. It's taken in context, so if it's in relation to helicopters, that's the context the name is considered to be marked. We'll do whatever is needed to be done up front and there won't be any problems later.


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3021244 - 05/29/10 07:19 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Flexman]  
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ricnunes Offline
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What those guys from those aerospace companies like Boeing or Lockheed Martin really need would be to get an arrow shot from a real Longbow (the bow) into their arses!! This way their wouldn't bother guys like Flexman which are very talented and hard working guys that makes our favourite games.

#3021256 - 05/29/10 07:43 PM Re: Little name change [Re: ricnunes]  
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Flexman Offline
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Steady on there ric. They are not bothering us, we approached them to clarify the situation which these days is a wise thing to do. I don't see them making video games any time soon but they might. Other companies like SEGA and EA have to do it, we're making sure we do everything on the level.

If they turn around and ask for large sums which as an independent developer we can't afford we'll have to find a workaround to comply.


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3021277 - 05/29/10 08:24 PM Re: Little name change [Re: Flexman]  
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ricnunes Offline
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Well, but if it wasn't for their (aerospace companies) greedy atitude you wouldn't need to worry about these issues, isn't that correct?


Anyway, I have the impression that as long as you don't use company/commercial names like Boeing or Lockheed Martin or internal company project designations you shoudn't have any problems. Resuming, if you say that the helicopter you're modeling is a:

"Boeing AH-64D Apache", you could have problems with trademark issues ("Boeing" name).

But instead if you use for the same helicopter this designation:

"AH-64D Apache", you shoudn't have any problems, since AH-64D Apache is a US military designation (and not a Boeing one) which therefore is a "public name".


Regarding the Longbow radar, it's possible that Longbow is a trademark for the radar but be aware that the Longbow radar is made by Lockheed Martin company and NOT by the Boeing company. See here:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/LongbowFireControlRadarMissile/index.html

But in order to avoid this problem just drop the Longbow name as you already did and name the radar "FCR radar" for example (instead of Longbow radar).

#3021422 - 05/30/10 01:59 AM Re: Little name change [Re: ricnunes]  
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AD Offline
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I searched and could find no references to the trademark of "Longbow" under the category of computer games and flight simulations. It's widely trademarked under other categories however by various companies not associated with aircraft manufacturing.

Quote:
"AH-64D Apache", you shoudn't have any problems, since AH-64D Apache is a US military designation (and not a Boeing one) which therefore is a "public name".


AH-64 Apache is a name trademarked under 'Goods and services: Helicopters' by Boeing. Thankfully we're not in the business of making helicopters, we're in the business of developing simulations, a category under which neither Longbow, AH-64 nor Apache is trademarked.

Technically we can use any or all of these names just as countless games and sims have done for the past 20 years. Unfortunately as we know the law is bent backwards by companies that have the cash to do so. If we were to get into legal difficulties with Boeing, and we actually chose to fight, the outcome would at best be a phyrric victory.

Regardless of whether by law we need it or not, pursuing permission from Boeing to use the terms Longbow, AH-64 or Apache, protects us in the long-run.

Cheers

Last edited by AD; 05/30/10 02:57 AM.

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