I'm having a bit of trouble with these barbaric trimless stringbags!

Flying with an X52, I've set the sensitivity so the pitch and roll are more sensitive near the centre. But, with several aircraft, to fly level at high power requires the stick held forwards, in the region where the pitch input is a steep slope. This means that when I'm trying to aim at something, pitch control is jumpy because I'm holding the stick half forward. Is anyone else finding this?

Is it possible to play with the Saitek programming software to make a helicopter-style auto-trim button, like that found in Black Shark (and Nils Daniellson's BK117 for X-Plane), where you press a button to make the stick's current position into the position the stick reports when it's centred? So, if I'm flying with the stick 50% forward, I press this key, and then when I've got the stick centred it's reporting that it's 50% forward?

I'm not used to the X52, or using a stick - I've been using a CHProducts yoke for all my simming from the beginning of time until a couple of months ago, and with a yoke you don't need to worry about input curves, the throw is long enough and forces low enough you have good sensitivity at all input positions!

(And if this works, can we elect a new 'Trim On A Slider' forum clown like RayBanJockey was for the Il-2 community on the Ubi forums back in 2003ish???)

No, but in RoF you can adjust the center of gravity (pitch) before the flight.

Here's a good "How To" tutorial.

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5144

I don't use such an extreme setting with my Saitek Evo Force but I did set this up to a lesser degree for the SE5a, Dr1 and N17, all of which are very tail heavy.

The planes that should have in-flight trim (like the SE5a) don't -- yet but it has been promised. Most didn't but riggers could set the trim on the ground before the flight by tightening and loosening the wires.

You aren't in Black Shark any more, Toto

HT

As noted above, just adjust the stick curve to have it's origin off center. For the D.VA which I fly most of the time, the origin is forward and to the right for example.

-Jenrick

We aren't changing the center of gravity here, all we are changing is the neutral position of the elevator. Big difference.

Would be funny if we had an option for how large of a lead weight we wanted to add in the tail...

I have no real world flight experience but from a desktop sim perspective it would make sense to have these trimless aircraft all having stick neutral in the same place.

Each aircraft should fly hands off at fast cruise, by that I mean without elevator imput, obviously you might still need roll or ruddder to keep things pointed in the right direction. This is an entertainment product and the way certain aircraft are set up by default at the moment isn't making things easy for us. With my force feedback MSFF2 I find the Se5 and Camel OK but the DR1 and D8 are impossible. At cruising speed I'm constantly pushing the stick well forward, at high speed these's hardly enough forward stick travel to keep the nose down. I've never encountered a sim that behaved this way with different sticks.

I'm beeen buying sim products for 15 years and I'm a bit baffled, how now users are supposed to approach this I can't imagine.

I'm having very similar problems, especially with the Camel. So much forward stick needed that very jumpy and impossible to aim at all. Having to ram the EAs!
Biggles never mentioned this...
Using a Saitek Aviator at the moment, MS FFB2 stuck at back of cupboard.

The RoF Forums seem to be down so cant check the tutorial above.

Cheers,
Keith

That may well be the Saitek Aviator at fault there Keith. I used one too and had problems with it jumping and spiking so I use a Logitech now and the problems have gone. Look at your calibration software and you can see the axes jumping.

With a HOTAS, you should be able to put a trim like command on a slider. I use my antenna elevator rotary of the Cougar Throttle to trim the y-axis. It's pretty much like a dynamic way of changing the neutral position of that axis while flying, where the center position of the rotary is the true center of the stick. Depending on the speed and theplane, i move the thing up and down randomly.

I guees something similar should be possible for the Saitek HOTAS.

We shouldn't have to set complex axis curves or use external programming software to make the aircraft flyable with certain sticks. This isn't tweaking to improve things its basic setup.

Agreed - tweaking the stick to compensate is strictly a kludge (in aviation terms 'getting your controls crossed')...

The Aviator works fine in other sims, and in ROF its fine with low power settings, so its not spiking.
But with power turned up or at higher speed (in a dive) the planes gets increasingly tail heavy (which could be correct) and uncontrollable (which isn't).

Can see the RoF forum now so will try the suggested fix (even though its for the SE5a)

Cheers,
Keith

With the MSFF2 its the DR1 and D8 that I have the most problem with, I'm lucky that I tend to fly the Camel and Se5 most which work fine with the MSFF2. You almost need 2-3 different sticks if you fly a wide selection of the ROF aircraft.

I fly every single airplane in ROF all using the same stick (CH Fighterstick) all using the default in game curve with no extra controller software programming.

The reason for the different elevator center/neutral positions has been explained by Neoqb and I understand their reasoning and approach, it just doesn't carry over too well to spring centered sticks.
Joysticks have the same travel distance both forward and backward, while most real aircraft have less forward/down elevator travel so the center isn't necessarily the center of travel.

On aircraft without trim they are usually trimmed for a modest cruise speed. Any higher than that and they will tend to climb or pitch up, which is totally different than becoming tail heavy.
If they were trimmed to fly level at top speed you would probably run out of back stick / up elevator at slow speeds.

There are always compromises.

Not every aircraft of this period had trim, and many of them required positive control at all times.

IIRC, the only trim available was elevator when it was given as a design feature.

Flying a WWI crate "hands off" would not be advised under any circumstances.

Guys, these aren't Bf-109's, P-51's, or F-16's.

What is needed in IMHO is a form of rigging controls (not the just the control surface adjustment) so that you can rig the a/c before the flight.

Its not the need for constant forward pressure that is the real problem, its the constant vigorous bobbing up and down that makes it absolutely impossible to aim.
Cheers,
Keith

Tha's why i use an axis statement, which makes it possible to fly all planes without much stress. A "fix" is probably not going to happen, as this "problem" is a design feature and/or a compromise.
It's probably the best for other HOTAS users to do the same and use such statement as a fix for the time beeing. A better solution than an endless debate i'd say.

OK I'm repeating myself but here goes.

With my MSFF2 the Se5 and Camel are set up for level flight with elevator neutral at fast cruise, as they should be. The DR1 and D8 pitch nose high at elevator neutral even at stall speed, I barely have enough forward travel to keep the nose down at high speed, accurate flying is next to impossible.

Dart, I'm not asking for fly by wire auto trim, or any trim at all. I just want aircraft that fly level with elevator neutral at fast cruise speed as I thought these aircraft did in reality.

Blue Raven, if Neoqb are attempting to model available stick travel in the different real aircraft then I really don't think that's something that we need modelled in a PC desk sim.

Really there are two issues, historical accuracy and playability.

For accuracy, there is an interesting recent description of flying the Camel in airshows here .
A couple of quotes


So we should be able to hold it level with light forward pressure on the stick.



Note it hasn't run out of forward stick travel.

I've flown light aeroplanes, power does pull the nose up, thats one of the reasons trim was invented. Changing speed will also move the nose up and down, I've flown gliders too, they have to be trimmed too.
But you can fly out of trim, its just more effort and you CAN run out of elevator travel especially when landing. The symptoms however are not pitching up and down in a PIO, thats more likely C of G too far aft. If anything the Camel CofG is forward.

The Camel didn't have trim. If the real one behaved like the RoF one does, Sopwith b****y well would have fitted trim adjustment PDQ!

Either neoqb have exaggerated historical tendencies to differentiate the aircraft artificially OR their control input routines are optimised for some joysticks and broken for others.

Either way, for playability, they should 'fix' it...but I would be happy with anything that made it flyable. Right now my expensive Camel is unfightable
Cheers,
Keith

That's the heart of the matter, and magically giving trim tabs and controls to aircraft that didn't have them is the long way around!

Lowering the responsiveness of the elevator would probably be a better way to go, but as you pointed out, it is a stick-by-stick issue. I really don't have a huge problem with PIO in the Camel using an X52Pro.

However, one can always adjust their stick settings in the simulation by means of response curves.

Okay, just give them all 50 degrees of elevator travel each way and bring on the 3d aerobatics...