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#2929936 - 12/30/09 11:28 PM Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims.  
Joined: Dec 2009
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KJakker Offline
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KJakker  Offline
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Michigan, USA
I am new here at SimHQ and would categorize myself as a casual combat flight sim player. I came looking for a little help in getting some more enjoyment out of flight sims. In the past I always liked flying in games but have been put off from getting the full enjoyment out of them due to frustration over three factors that I will call Visibility, Flight Dynamics, and Instruction.

Visibility is probably the first thing that I had problems with as in the old days on a 13inch or 15inch CRT monitory if you had the cockpit turned on only an 8inch window might be usable hence why I have long been one to go to no-cockpit view without hesitation. Secondly with the fixed viewing angles, whether they be 12, 3, 9 or 6 o'clock in older sims I was forever losing my situational awareness. Well I got a TrackIR 5 for Christmas this year that when mated with the gaming computer I built about 8 months ago and its 24inch LCD is just WOW!

In IL2 1946 collection I now find myself actually leaving the cockpit on and using the ability to see my own plane to improve my situational awareness relative to the ground and the enemy. In fact it has made flying sims fun again due to the lack of frustration the impaired visibility used to cause. I have since reinstalled Falcon 4.0 Allied Force and LOMAC, attempted to reinstall Mig Alley and bought DCS: Black Shark.

Having taken care of that big sticking point has made me want to deal with the other two sources of frustration. The second frustration I face is what I am calling Flight Dynamics but would probably be better termed energy management. I learned what limited skills of ACM/BFM I have from the Wing Commander, X-Wing/TIE Fighter, Freespace school if you will. Obviously the rules are vastly different when you take God's G out of the equation, speed is solely a factor of the throttle and max turn rates are a constant. I in essences have learned all the wrong rules. Anyone here who has experience with both space shooters of the types above and combat flight sims I would like to ask your advice on learning to overcome this situation.

Finally there is the issue of Instruction of the lack there of. To me it seem that many of the training mission in the sim's I have played are not very informative. The best training missions I have ever played are those in Freespace 2 and the ones that Team Super Hornet made for Janes F/A-18. In both the voice of the instructor talks you through each task to perform so that by the time you are done you have learn most of the important information you need to know to operate your crafts systems.

Maybe I am looking in the wrong place but most of the other sims say go do such and such in the briefing and then leave me in a plane thinking "You want me to do what? How?" with no support. I got shot down in an Falcon AF training mission as it did not tell me what I was supposed to be doing. Another example is LOMAC. It has those great training videos but you lose all of the instructor input when you fly it yourself. I could have aced a number of LOMAC's training missions the first time if they had left the instructors comments from the videos on when I flew them as I could have learned from doing. At lest with the old sims there were big paper manuals that you could set on the desk and look up the answer while paused, something that a PDF file is not very good at.

So as above if anyone has good training aids/missions to help compensate for the lack of what is officially provided or can point me in the direction such resources I would greatly appreciate it. The TrackIR 5 has helped me rekindle my fascination with flying games and I hope you can help me over come the other issues that have frustrated me over the years.

Last edited by KJakker; 12/30/09 11:30 PM.
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#2929944 - 12/30/09 11:43 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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Immermann Offline
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For LOMAC I'd go to Flankertraining:

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/news.html


"When I saw The Matrix at a local theatre in Slovenia, I had the unique opportunity of sitting close to the ideal spectator of the film - namely, to an idiot." - Slavoj Zizek
#2929945 - 12/30/09 11:45 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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Raw Kryptonite Offline
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Go check out the Wings of Prey forum. That is the pc version (enhanced) of the console game IL2 Birds of Prey. They cater to pretty much all levels of flight sim enthusiast. Brand new game and it's gorgeous.


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#2929946 - 12/30/09 11:46 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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Corsair8X Offline
Dagestan, Dover, DMZ
Corsair8X  Offline
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Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Welcome and I hear where you are coming from. TrackIR has you set so let's move on.

I found my flying - just flying, sucked. So I got FSX and just worked on flying the Cessna 172 for a while. I really think it helped. There is a lot you can't do with a 172 - and I think it helps build up your airmanship. You can't use thrust to do your work and so, you learn to fly.

As for instruction. I've heard getting on line and finding a mentor is a good way to do it. I will be trying that approach this year. However, SimHQ has two of the best articles I've ever seen on BFM. Written by Andy Bush, they literally solved issues that I had experienced and could not work out *for a decade*.

Part 1
Part 2

If you read nothing else than at least make sure you read these two articles - especially the 2nd part. Then read them again. Seriously. Twice... or more. Especially Part 2. He phrases it the way it should be phrased - what you are seeing, what you should be seeing. He actually constructs the ideal picture in your head.

What I thought I was seeing was the wrong picture. I really thought I was doing it right and just not getting it. No. I was doing it wrong. What I thought I should see was wrong. This article tells you what you really should see. The first time up I could see what I was doing wrong right away. I had the wrong picture. The article told me what the right sight picture was.

From time to time I re-read it. It helps.

I found that the Strike Fighters series is a great, fun way to get lots of BFM practice in. Not a lot of button pushing and plenty of visual aids available which will help a person work on the concepts that are important.

And again, welcome.


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#2929950 - 12/30/09 11:51 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: Corsair8X]  
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citizen guod Offline
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Welcome KJakker,

For training, check out the Air Combat Corner Library. Several articles that teach basics, advanced and steps in-between.

http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#2929978 - 12/31/09 12:45 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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KJakker Offline
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KJakker  Offline
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Michigan, USA
Thanks for the quick replies. Immermann, thanks for the link. It has been so long that I had forgotten about that site. Raw Kryptonite, I will check out that forum. Corsair8X, thanks for the advice. I am sure I can find it on my own but would you happen to know of a good place to find the Strike Fighters series without spending an arm and a leg? Guod thanks for the welcome and link.

I thought I should mention that I have no experience at playing online. I have only had DSL in my area for the last year or so. Before that it was dial up. The last time I played a game head to head against another human being it was a school friend directly over a modem, the game was Duke Nukem 3D and it was about 14 years ago.

#2929983 - 12/31/09 12:53 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Hello and welcome!

I see you have TrackIR now, so that's good. A nice PC would also greatly improve "visibility" so a great Core2Duo or a nice quad plus a beefy videocard is a must. Don't forget the RAM.

For flight dynamics, I can't recommend FS9 or FSX enough. Sure, we want military sims, but lining up for a landing in FS9 with a Cessna with crosswinds makes for a fun experience, and has helped me immensely with my Falcon 4 landings. Also, there are some "missions" in FS9/FSX that has you monitoring airspeed and climb rate/angles and really helps in "situation awareness" as far as how your own aircraft is doing, and really helps. I also learned a lot about VOR and IFR navigation from FS9 which helped me understand stuff in Falcon 4. So the basic idea is, sometimes a different sim can enhance your experience in another one by teaching you new stuff. In our military sims, we just jump straight to the fun (shooting things down) that we often overlook the basics.

As for instruction, nothing beats having the manual on your lap. I "learned" Falcon 4 AF that way (yes, including the ramp start). I printed out the whole manual, bound it, then had it by me every time I play. The PAUSE button is there for a reason. biggrin

Oh, and BTW, the "fun" for me in flight sims is being "in control." That includes situational awareness, but is mostly expressed in proper landings (OK,3 in Jane's F/A-18, whooo!), single-pass bombing runs in F4AF, low-flying sneak attacks in EECH. A lot of that "fun" comes from knowing what to do when a situation arises, and that you can only get from hours and hours of learning the game.

EDIT: Maybe you should want to concentrate on learning one sim at a time? Coz I'm thinking maybe you're getting swamped with all the sims you're playing...

Hope that helps!

Last edited by - Ice; 12/31/09 12:55 AM.

- Ice
#2929990 - 12/31/09 01:08 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
Joined: Oct 2005
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Corsair8X Offline
Dagestan, Dover, DMZ
Corsair8X  Offline
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Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: KJakker
I am sure I can find it on my own but would you happen to know of a good place to find the Strike Fighters series without spending an arm and a leg?


Thirdwire sims are just around $20 for each one. You are unfortunately 2 days short of a sale where they bundled all 4 for just under $50. Here though, you can pick and choose which one you want. If you go with Vietnam-era, the missiles are so crap (due to the era) that you will be forced to resort to guns a lot of the time - and thus the learning begins. Hey, for $19.99 even if you found it to be a mistake, it's a pretty inexpensive one. smile


Corsair8X

virtually making history 30mm at a time
#2930016 - 12/31/09 02:03 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: - Ice]  
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KJakker Offline
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KJakker  Offline
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Michigan, USA
Thanks for the comments. I just realized I should have mentioned what my system is. So FYI the system I built back in April is a Core i7 920 with 6GB of DDR3 RAM, an Nvidia GTX 275 GPU, and an HP LP2475w 1920x1200 24inch LCD monitor. My stick is a Microsoft SideWinder Precision 2.

Given the advice you and others have given I am going to have to give FS9 or FSX a look. I think their prices have come down to reasonable levels if I remember my last trip to Best Buy. I think you are right about focusing on one sim at a time however. Maybe FSX and IL2 to start with. Once I get the basics down with them I can add LOMAC for learning radar employment.

As for the manual, I thought about printing out the manuals myself as well but I share my printer with other people in the house so the cost of printer ink is an issue as the printer is not mine. I actually checked with FedEx/Kinko's but in black and white the F4AF manual with addendums is $69.73. Its over $500 if done in color. No wonder they went to PDF files.

As for the "fun" issue, and the thing that made me want to ask question here, I think leaped out at me when I had manged to barrel role a P-63 into position to one shot a Bf-109 with my 37mm cannon and keep him in sight the whole time I did it.

Last edited by KJakker; 12/31/09 02:07 AM.
#2930621 - 01/01/10 02:10 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Oh, that's a nice rig you got there. No problems playing the sims then, I wager.

Do give FS9/FSX a look. It may be expensive (I dunno the price now), but I tell you, I've learned a lot from it. Again, it may be just the basics, but it's fun. Also, I "tried out" for one of the online flight groups and so I had to "record" a test flight and I learned a lot of that as well. It had most to do with following the flight parameters - not rising more than a certain rate, keeping within +/- 100 feet of the assigned altitude, following an "invisible" path in the sky (VOR navigation), and so on. This was in FS9, so I'm not sure about FSX, but I bet it's more of the same but with better eye candy.

I'm not sure about LOMAC though. I mean, sure, it's fun, and I totally love the Russian aircraft, but as for radar and such, I'm not sure it's a good place to practice on. For one thing, I can do things in LOMAC that I can't do in F4AF or even in FS9 (such as coming in way too hot but landing safely anyway), so I have doubts regarding "realism." Flaming Cliffs may add a good aircraft, but again, I have my doubts regarding flight dynamics and realism. Can anyone else confirm this? Or educate me on this? biggrin Anyway, my humble, extremely-biased 2 cents would suggest you try Falcon 4 AF if you want to try radar and flir and dropping lead on target.

Regarding printers, do you know you can buy your own ink and refill it yourself? What printer do you have? I have a Canon MP198, and I do my own refills and printing. Last I counted, it costs me about $4-6 printing a 300-page full-color PDF (D&D 4th Edition PDFs), so if you could go this route, all you're worried about is the binding, since the F4AF manual is one thick SOB. If my calculations are correct, that one cost me only about $6 to print.


- Ice
#2930668 - 01/01/10 03:10 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Originally Posted By: KJakker
Having taken care of that big sticking point has made me want to deal with the other two sources of frustration. The second frustration I face is what I am calling Flight Dynamics but would probably be better termed energy management.


Do you like flying LOMAC, Falcon 4.0 Allied Force, IL2 1942 and Jane's F/A-18 just for the sake of flying the plane? In my case, I always started each with no enemies and just taking the plane out for a spin. I'm not aware how much time I spent, but flying with no enemies around and experimenting with basic maneuvers might be a good start.

Every time I bought a new flight sim, I would eagerly go to "free flight" and experiment with the hammer head turn, simulate the yo-yo, do a simple loop, turn a hard-G, etc. finding out the craft's limits. Once I got a feel of the aircraft only then would I go to combat. In my years of flying (simulations), I never encountered problem with handling the aircraft. The only problem I have is pushing it to the limits.

I would suggest you practice directly on the sim you want to play. Each game is programmed differently. For example, you might think that practicing on LOMAC's F-15 would give you a good insight on Jane'sF-15, but that would not be the case. Jane's products have a certain sluggish/heavy handling on their planes.

You'll know that you've got the feel of the game/program/simulation once you stop thinking while flying the plane. It's the point where you automatically do things since you've memorized how to handle it.

EDIT:Added
With regards to situational awareness, I think LOMAC might be a good start unless I missed features on IL2 etc. You can literally fly the planes in LOMAC without looking directly ahead because of the minihud attached to your view (e.g. you can spend the whole time looking at your 3'oclock and not crash the plane).

this is a bit cool, you're making me remember my simming experiences smile I'm considering buying myself a new HOTAS this new year.

Another thing last edit: lol once you've mastered the handling of the aircraft, like in IL2, it'll also improve your situational awareness. Why? cause let's say your enemy (standard fighter plane) just made a hard right turn and you lost visual contact at 3'oclock, you can make an educated guess on where he'll be since you got a general idea of how a fighter handles. So instead of following him you can opt make a hard left turn, or a loop depending upon your energy etc.

last comment... I'm blabbering too much ... damn this thread just made me miss flying simulations.

Last edited by JESC; 01/01/10 03:36 AM.
#2930702 - 01/01/10 05:16 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: ]  
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VF9_Longbow Offline
Hotshot
VF9_Longbow  Offline
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Tokyo, Japan
when you're fighting just remember a few golden rules:

#1 always use the optimum angle of attack while turning
#2 always be at the optimum turn airspeed while turning
#3 if you have an altitude advantage, use it up only if it allows you to make a kill
#4 if you don't have an altitude advantage, try to get one but not at the expense of your safety

finally

#5 if you are out of options and near the ground, if your aircraft is more maneuverable, try to trick your enemy into following you too close to the ground and make them crash.

i find that perfectly vertical split-s's performed at a height where you'll only have a dozen or so feet of recovery space work well for this. never do a turning split-s because it lets your opponent off the hook (they'll just roll out to a safe heading instead of the impossible 180 degree heading once they see they can't do it).

#2930958 - 01/01/10 08:23 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Titan Offline
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You've come to the right place for advice that's for sure.
I see you have trackIR. That is good as I feel our equipment is very important to the enjoyment and immersion and how it's set up. I don't mean a pit but you need to be comfortable. I say this because right now I don't have anyway of obtaining "comfort" and have not "flown" in in a year or so.
Anyway just keep at it with time things come to you and read as much as you possible can on A:the sim you're playing and B: flying and combat flying. When frustrated walk away for awhile.


"When the government fears its people, you have freedom,

and when people fear its government, you have tyranny."

Thomas Jefferson
#2931189 - 01/02/10 03:19 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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KJakker Offline
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KJakker  Offline
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Michigan, USA
Ice, I just checked and the price for cartridges for my printer is about $20 apiece and the A4AF manual is over 700 pages. That would be two cartridges or about the price it cost to buy the game new. Still I will think about it. As for Radar you are probably right that I could use A4AF and JANES F/A-18 to learn the same. Especially with the THS training missions for F-18.

JESC, the reason I have those titles is more chance than designed as a number of them I got in bargain bins and as parts of collection sets. The ones I have installed presently, LOMAC, Falcon 4.0 Allied Force, IL2, Mig Alley, and DCS: Black Shark I am presently using to get a feel for TrackIR. Still I get what you are saying about getting a feel for the plane in each simulation. I been playing around with Mig Alley for the last few days just with free flight or 1Vs1 situation just to get a feel for maneuvering the aircraft.

As for me making you miss flying simulations maybe we can support each other in getting back into flying, at least digitally.

VF9_Longbow, thanks for the pointers. Although I was in general aware of them I am still a long way from them being instinctual rather than intellectual. On a side note you wouldn't happen to be a Navy fighter pilot who likes Army attack choppers would you?

Titan, thanks for the welcome and the advice. I think I am going to add some simulated flying time to my new years resolution.

#2931317 - 01/02/10 09:05 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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Hartford688 Offline
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Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I felt a bit the same about trying to improve my basic flying skills, navigation etc. I just felt I was missing a lot in flailing around in combat sims (and I was very hit and miss, mostly miss).

I ended up getting FSX Gold at a good price (some bargains turn up occasionally, Amazon has it at $33 right now)and then bought a training book:

Amazon - MS FSX Real World Training

So far it is very enjoyable, though I am not far through it. It may have too much modern civilian stuff in it for you of course.

With this I hope to have my basics nailed, confidence up and be able to be better at combat flight sims.

One other thought - I find the WWI flight sims very satisfying and more approachable. Avionics being practically non existant and speeds lower mean you can grasp what is going on much better without being overwhelmed. Much fun.



#2931318 - 01/02/10 09:06 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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KJ, what is your printer?


- Ice
#2931386 - 01/02/10 02:43 PM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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KJakker Offline
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KJakker  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Michigan, USA
An HP Officejet 6500 Wireless.

#2931759 - 01/03/10 02:02 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: KJakker]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
JESC
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Originally Posted By: KJakker
JESC, the reason I have those titles is more chance than designed as a number of them I got in bargain bins and as parts of collection sets. The ones I have installed presently, LOMAC, Falcon 4.0 Allied Force, IL2, Mig Alley, and DCS: Black Shark I am presently using to get a feel for TrackIR. Still I get what you are saying about getting a feel for the plane in each simulation. I been playing around with Mig Alley for the last few days just with free flight or 1Vs1 situation just to get a feel for maneuvering the aircraft.

As for me making you miss flying simulations maybe we can support each other in getting back into flying, at least digitally.


noted, I'll pm you immediately once I get my simming time and gear sorted out. thumbsup

#2932301 - 01/04/10 12:56 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: ]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Sorry, not too familiar with that one. Can you link me to the cartridge page for your printer?

If you're willing to buy a new printer, I can recommend you a setup that'll be easy to refill. About US$100 for the printer, US$30 for the bulk inks and equipment so that you can do it yourself. With the equipment and skill, your initial investment would be peanuts in the long run. Not only can you print out your own manuals, but it's also great for the family.... for the kids' school projects or the wife's "happy birthday" banners and such.


- Ice
#2932340 - 01/04/10 02:39 AM Re: Looking for help in restoring the fun to flight sims. [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 208
KJakker Offline
Member
KJakker  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 208
Michigan, USA
The printer itself is new, bought within the last year so we are not in the business of buying a new one any time soon. The Dell printer we had before broke after about 6 years of use. We will probably be keeping this one until it breaks as well.

Here is the link. HP Officejet 6500 Just click on "cartridges" on that page.

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