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#2904036 - 11/19/09 12:34 PM Defence Lawyers are slime  
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Around 2 years ago an old school friend of mine was murdered up here in Toronto as part of a double murder. The husband of the other woman who was murdered was charged with both murders. The case has finally gone to trial and the defence is doing everything it can to portray my friend as a jealous woman who was being dumped by her husband and then proceeded to murder her ex-husband's new girlfriend, then kill herself.

I have known this woman and her twin sister since high school, we worked at the same at the same drug store after school and she would never have harmed a fly. But that doesn't seem to stop a pond scum defence lawyer from dragging her name through the mud in order to save their client, who will likely be found guilty regardless of the character assassination of the victims by the lawyer.

Here is a link to the story

Link


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#2904116 - 11/19/09 03:05 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Discord]  
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Sad.

The justice system, ours or yours, is not perfect. Defense counsel often resorts to these tactics, because they have nothing left. The evidence is strongly in favor of the prosecution and so this is what happens. It's a gamble because the jury often times doesn't appreciate the victims of a terrible crime being disparaged like that.


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#2904219 - 11/19/09 05:32 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: 20mm]  
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I would just be happy if everyone settled on the truth.

The problem with the legal system today is that it's about winning and losing. The only way it would be about the truth is if we removed the monetary factor from it. If we did that though, no one would want to be lawyers.


Life is tough. Life is tougher when you are stupid. - John Wayne
#2904270 - 11/19/09 06:51 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Destructis]  
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Defending bad people comes with the job of defending good people, unfortunately. I have a friend who defended a child molester once, he told me that he had never before hoped to lose a case until then.


"...for who are so free as the sons of the waves?"
#2904507 - 11/20/09 01:06 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: fatty]  
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I feel for you, Discord. There is too much of that going on in criminal practice. I try my level best to shield victims from that when I conduct a trial; I file all sorts of protective motions and object like hell when it becomes a character assassination. I'm successsful, sometimes.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#2904542 - 11/20/09 02:05 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Cat]  
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Defense lawyers are a necessary evil to keep law enforcement within the bounds of their authority.


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#2904545 - 11/20/09 02:11 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted By: TerribleTwo
Defense lawyers are a necessary evil to keep law enforcement within the bounds of their authority.


And in addition to that, to help make sure the INNOCENT aren't convicted.

Hell, the entire law enforcement establishment is a necessary evil.

#2904563 - 11/20/09 02:48 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Vulgarity]  
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The movie Devil's Advocate comes to mind when I think of defense lawyers, such as the fiasco for Caylee in Florida.

#2905969 - 11/22/09 04:38 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Pickled]  
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A career field dominated by and ideal for liars, conmen, and hacks.


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#2905995 - 11/22/09 05:15 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted By: TerribleTwo
Defense lawyers are a necessary evil to keep law enforcement within the bounds of their authority.


The problem is what someone alluded to eariler...it's about winning/losing, not about a fair trial.

A defense lawyer's job was originally designed to make sure his client got a proper trial, making sure the chain of evidence was correct, the witnesses were valid, proper procedures were followed, etc. In other words, it was to determine the truth of events. It was not designed to 'win' per se.

That has changed, and now defense lawyers try all sorts of techniques to obfuscate the truth instead if they don't have a valid defense. Making up wild stories, strange 'oppression' defenses, character assassination, anything to induce doubt into a jury made up of people who don't have opinions on anything.

FC

#2906036 - 11/22/09 07:02 PM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: FastCargo]  
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At the risk of getting blasted, and bearing in mind I could not do ever what criminal defense lawyers do, a huge problem is that the culture is such that people think "reasonable doubt" means beyond a shadow of a doubt and this is something that is largely contributed to by the sludge pile of CSI type legal shows produced by guys with definite political tilts that make it out as if tying up the truth with a neat little bow is so easy using technology and "good police work."

What do you think happens to a shooting scene before anyone ever gets close to getting the facts? Think about a self-defense shooting, to use an easy example. Think about a domestic dispute or better yet a bar fight which moves outside at 2am where someone ends up dead amongst a crowd.

It's not as clearcut as you are making it. It is hard for the prosecution and hard for the defense. You'd be surprised how many defense lawyers learned what they do prosecuting cases. I think it is very hard for the prosecutors to do their job and also shield the victim from attack in the type of case the OP is talking about.

What FC says is right, in that there is no duty to fabricate stories that the defense knows aren't true - in fact it is unethical to do so. But that (making up stories) is not what is done in the vast, vast majority of cases. Everything is not OJ and CSI and David Caruso and Sam Watterson and Judge Ito.

And by the way, more than you'd think, people, on all sides, lie, or "misremember" things or construct what they think is their true memory ("truth") from their perception of a traumatic event (ie, how many shots did you fire, officer? 3? Well we recovered 36 casings from the scene). LEOs, defendants, witnesses. It isn't always the intentional "lie" that is the problem. It is that everyone is human, and that means everyone is grossly imperfect, at best. It's why if someone is shot by LEO or yourself for that matter, in self defense, the LEO's and your best answer is "I'll be happy to give a full and complete statement after I've consulted with counsel." One of the reasons for that is because a guy will swear on his mother's sould that he shot 3 times, because he has no idea that he really reloaded 3 times and emptied the weapon each time.

Bottom line: It's not TV and it's not easy.

Last edited by Airdrop01; 11/23/09 05:00 AM.

"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#2906190 - 11/23/09 01:24 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Airdrop01]  

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Not actually something recent or the sort. Some of it is just history repeating itself. Like, people may point out some inherent flaws in Democracy/Republic (IIRC) however, these problems were not new and sometimes you'll be surprised that some of these "problems" already took place in the Roman empire. (i.e. they encountered it more than a thousand years ago)

Going back to the topic at hand, I was reminded of the concept of sophism which extended back to Plato..

Originally Posted By: WARNING wiki quote
Plato is largely responsible for the modern view of the "sophist" as a greedy instructor who uses rhetorical sleight-of-hand and ambiguities of language in order to deceive, or to support fallacious reasoning. In this view, the sophist is not concerned with truth and justice, but instead seeks power. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all challenged the philosophical foundations of sophism.


I think this is something we have to deal with. Is it part of our nature?

Last edited by JESC; 11/23/09 01:25 AM.
#2906197 - 11/23/09 01:50 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: ]  
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I refuse to indulge in sweeping, blanket indictments of any group, including lawyers. I have several friends and a relative who are lawyers, and they are all pretty decent folks.

In day-to-day life, people, regardless of their profession, must be judged according to their individual traits and character.

Over the span of twenty years of being treated for disabilities acquired in the line of duty, I have accumulated a large amount of negative data concerning doctors. But not all of them are bad. In fact, some of them are knights in shining armor. Just as with lawyers.

Only in war, where another man's uniform tells you everything you need to know, should one lump people into a group, and even then there are cases that are exceptions.

But life is not always war. In time of peace, if we judge by group instead of individual merit, we have lost our humanity.

Cheers!

Rick... wink


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#2906219 - 11/23/09 02:33 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: ]  
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Fvck it. I better keep my trap shut on this.

Miao, Cat

Last edited by Cat; 11/23/09 02:39 AM.

Miao, Cat
#2906235 - 11/23/09 03:10 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Cat]  
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I look at this subject from a different perspective. My brother is serving life in Florida, for killing his wife. He had a couple of public defenders, and was poorly represented. They didn't do a very competant job, much less pull any tricks or technicalities. He was guilty of certain aspects, mostly very poor judgement, but has never been able to get his side of the story heard in court, which I always thought was the very minimum obligation of the defense lawyer's duty. We are still trying to find a way to get both sides before a jury. Not every case is as cut and dried as we like to think.

Last edited by coasty; 11/23/09 03:12 AM.

Have you seen the Arrow? WWW
#2906247 - 11/23/09 03:31 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: coasty]  
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Absolutely agree, coasty.

On a completely unrelated note: Are you still involved in scouts and OA?

My boy is 8 and in cub scouts now and I was just this weekend showing him all the old Eagle and OA and misc scout stuff I found in a box in the attic. He thought the "wilderness survival" training stuff and journal I kept when doing that was the best. It was a pretty cool thing to share.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#2906255 - 11/23/09 03:43 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Airdrop01]  
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most definitely! Tomorrow my son and I are meeting with one of the boys from our troop at our local Nature Center, which he is building some bird houses and bat houses for. He turns 18 in mid December, so we are scrambling! He is a really good young man, and we have been worried that he was just going to let this slip past, mostly by thinking everything was going to go perfectly.
Our OA lodge has been national champs twice at NOAC for Indian Dance and this year our drum team took 1st also. They have gotten good enough that the Cherokee nation here in Western NC has asked them to visit and show the native dance, song, drumming and regalia to the native youth. That is quit an honor.
The skills of Scouting have saved my life several time, helped me help others, and probably done me more real good than all the school I attended. Both were good and necessary, but the practical, hands on of Scouting has lasted.
I hope you and your son enjoy it together!


Have you seen the Arrow? WWW
#2906259 - 11/23/09 03:54 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: coasty]  
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Well I was going to participate in this discussion, I have some good insight and thoughts... but the usual anti-police BS came in to play, when it really has nothing to do with this topic... so I'll keep my mouth shut... just be advised the US has some of the greatest, most trained, most checks and balances police in the world.

Get over that one disrespectful cop or bad ticket you got already.

#2906275 - 11/23/09 04:51 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: Magnum]  
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Roger that, I keep wondering where all the "bad cops" are, because all of them I know are sacrificing a lot to protect the rest of us and deserve better pay and more respect!


Have you seen the Arrow? WWW
#2906347 - 11/23/09 09:25 AM Re: Defence Lawyers are slime [Re: coasty]  
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Gah I wish Mag and Cat would partcipate. I usually learn something new when you both add things to legal threads.


Life is tough. Life is tougher when you are stupid. - John Wayne
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