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#2888784 - 10/27/09 02:34 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MattM]  
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MIG77 Offline
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MattM, from same book (page 41): "Not even the Fokker triplane could follow a camel in a right-handed bank" -Capt Henry Winslow Woollett wink


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
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#2888792 - 10/27/09 02:44 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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Dart Offline
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I wouldn't read too much into the video as to the FM of the Camel versus the DR1; somehow I don't think Brian was giving it his all in a promotional video for the Camel.

It wouldn't be much of a "you have to get this" advertisement if the DR1 curled neatly around the Camel and shot it down, now would it?

There's a real danger in watching stuff like this, as pilot skills really matter.

I've out-turned zeroes in my Hurricane IIb against human pilots at equal energy states, which is supposed to be "impossible" in the IL-2 series. It was really a function of time in type rather than poor FM modelling; my opponent hadn't really flown Japanese planes while I have oodles of time in my beloved Hurricane.

I'm sure that DVII I tussled with online with my Nieuport 17 was cursing the whole time, as I'm fairly good with it - I certainly was cursing at him for knowing just how to keep it on the edge of the envelope and not allowing me to escape.

"It's the man not the machine," as the man says.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2888797 - 10/27/09 02:47 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: Dart]  
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Dart, I agree. Thats why I hope Vati to show his mentioned aerodynamic analysis.


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888803 - 10/27/09 02:51 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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MattM Offline
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But he never shot down a Dr.1, so his statement might be a bit exaggerated. But it could also be that that depended on the Camel engine aswell, to some degree.

#2888805 - 10/27/09 02:58 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MattM]  
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I wasnt aware that you have to shoot something down to make acceptable opinion about plane turn perfomance. biggrin Anyway I think it proves that that their turn perfomance was close enought for the right to have obinions to either way.



You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888836 - 10/27/09 03:30 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Clarify for me guys. Which side is either plane suppossed to turn better?

Camel - Right
DR1 - Left

?

Jason

#2888860 - 10/27/09 04:01 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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Vati Offline
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Originally Posted By: MIG77
MattM, from same book (page 41): "Not even the Fokker triplane could follow a camel in a right-handed bank" -Capt Henry Winslow Woollett wink

From a pilot who never claimed a Fokker triplane wink One thing he is correct is that no plane could follow Camel's spin to the right which was trick used to get away when in trouble.

As for statistical pro et contra. Buy some books on Fokker Dr.I and its pilots and you will see plenty of evidence.
The analysis I spoke earlier is work done by me and colleague when we were testing the physics engine for our Condor sim and is not for public release. But I am not the only one who did it, use google and find it. It's quite popular topic for aerodynamic exercises as they have most complete data available.

In the end, I really do not care if you stay ignorant and believe Camel myths. wink

#2888873 - 10/27/09 04:15 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: Vati]  
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Originally Posted By: Vati

From a pilot who never claimed a Fokker triplane wink One thing he is correct is that no plane could follow Camel's spin to the right which was trick used to get away when in trouble.


AS I said earlier. Not shooting Dr.I down dont mean he never fought against one and thus his opinion is just as good as anyone else who flied these planes.

Quote:
As for statistical pro et contra. Buy some books on Fokker Dr.I and its pilots and you will see plenty of evidence.
The analysis I spoke earlier is work done by me and colleague when we were testing the physics engine for our Condor sim and is not for public release. But I am not the only one who did it, use google and find it. It's quite popular topic for aerodynamic exercises as they have most complete data available.

In the end, I really do not care if you stay ignorant and believe Camel myths. wink


I have plenty of books about Dr.1 and Camel which contradicts each other. I am waiting your proof it turned better to right as you claimed.


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888880 - 10/27/09 04:30 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
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Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Clarify for me guys. Which side is either plane suppossed to turn better?

Camel - Right
DR1 - Left

?

Jason



Apparently, the direction in which the engine rotates will produce the tightest turn. So the Sopwith Camel, with a clockwise rotation (from pilot's perspective), should produce a tighter turn to the right. Not sure if the DR1 has a counterclockwise rotation, but if it does, it should turn best to the left.

BTW, thanks for the vid!

#2888885 - 10/27/09 04:35 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: Dantes]  
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Originally Posted By: Dantes
That run down the tree-lined waters reminded me of the final scene in "Von Richthofen and Brown".

Thanks for the video update.

S!



My thoughts exactly. Visually it's a beautiful scene ain't it? The thing that always bothered me is why did Richthoven wing over to his left when it appeared he still had plenty of energy? Why allow Brown to get on his six so easily?


Thanks for the clip Jason. The HD clip is beautiful. Though I'm not sure if you were highlighting the Camel or those DR1 skins. wink SMASHING!

#2888889 - 10/27/09 04:37 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: Vati]  
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Hello,

hey no need to despise one plane for the other lol. The Camel was faster in a straight level flight, but only a bit (speaking of 5-10 mph, which is certainly something), even with the (later) stronger engine. When von Richthofen could not close in to a Camel in his Dr.I, he fired some bullets to make the enemy pilot zigzag, and lose his precious speed advantage.

As you can read in a lot of reports you had to apply ailerons and a bit of rudder to the Camel all the time, just to fly straight ahead. I guess one can imagine what that does to your airspeed. Then there is certainly the report from McCudden et al. about their fight against Voss and his triplane .. but then Voss' plane was a Fokker F1 test plane, not the later Fokker Dr.I - the latter having a slightly less powerful engine, and was not quite as good as the Fokker F1 in turning due to its enhanced stability of the upper wing - but almost.

Anyway you could still turn in a Dr.I on a dime, and even fly sideways while spraying bullets along a line parallel to your plane's flight path. Voss seems to have flown virtually backwards after a full swing round the vertical axis, if not for long. The triplane with its steel tube frame was much more good-mooded than the beasty Camel - 130 hp in a bull nose, and almost 75 percent weight in front of the wings of the Camel - add a light long tail to counter this (the Camel was trimmed tail heavy, but not with balanced weight, but a long light wooden rear covered with canvas) and you have very bad stability .. which is good if you are an experienced pilot who knows how to handle and use it.

We have discussed this here and at other places so often that i wonder who has not read it lol, however .. a good source are original books, old reports of real pilots, pilots that flew a rebuilt museum-quality plane, and the aerodrome forum.

Greetings,
Catfish

#2888898 - 10/27/09 04:51 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: Catfish]  
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MattM Offline
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I guess you already read this:

home.comcast.net/~clipper-108/AIAAPaper2005-119.pdf

Of course this is still does not clear this issue.

But if the Camel could outturn the Dr.1 in a right-hand turn, i wonder why Idflieg would advise the pilots of the precious little Fokker to make right-hand turns to evade.

If i would have to choose between the opinion of a Camel pilot who never shot down a Dr.1 (and pretty certain never flew a Dr.1 himself) and Idflieg, which may very well have tested the performance of a captured Camel and compared it with the Dr.1, i would go with Idflieg.

Last edited by MattM; 10/27/09 04:52 PM.
#2888900 - 10/27/09 04:52 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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I have four books on the Dr I at home and, from memory, none claims it could out-turn a Camel in either direction, just that it was very agile. I think there's a comment here on the forum somewhere leading back to an article by a pilot who had flown replicas of both and thought any differences in turn were too close to call.

Cheers,

Nick

Last edited by RocketDog; 10/27/09 04:54 PM.

Beyond gliding distance
#2888920 - 10/27/09 05:18 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: RocketDog]  
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MIG77 Offline
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MattM, I have seen that before. I dont trust that analysis that much as it has its share of errors (last time I checked it, it had too heavy Fokker D.VII used in calculations. So all fokker D.VII data was wrong. Also Camel/Dr.I conclusion little odd in there.)


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888925 - 10/27/09 05:23 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: RocketDog]  
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MIG77 Offline
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Originally Posted By: RocketDog
I have four books on the Dr I at home and, from memory, none claims it could out-turn a Camel in either direction, just that it was very agile.


Pretty much what I have readed aswell. In Dr.I and Camel books both pretty much always claim "it could outturn anything" (only difference is that Camel is usually mentioned to be best turner to right and Dr.I to both directions)


Quote:
I think there's a comment here on the forum somewhere leading back to an article by a pilot who had flown replicas of both and thought any differences in turn were too close to call.

Cheers,

Nick


Those pilots with replica planes have not shooted down either Camel or Fokker so their opinion cannot be used biggrin (Sorry, I just had to say it...)


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888929 - 10/27/09 05:30 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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Triple 7, what are the specs of your rig and what settings are you using in-game. That video is incredibly beautiful and smooth. I have not been able to achieve such results yet.

#2888985 - 10/27/09 07:08 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: JIBB]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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It does look nice huh? Settings Maxed except for Landscape at Medium which does not make a differenee really in appearance. FRAPS kills my FPS badly though. I run at 1900x1200.

I have a high end system. At least it used to be.

Intel 965 EE Stock at 3.2 air cooled
6GB 1333 RAM
EVGA X58 Mobo
EVGA 295 Vid Card
X-Fi
WD 1.5GTB HDD
Logitech G940
TrackIR 5

I still get the occasional hiccup and micro-stutter, but I have never really had horrible performance in any way other than some cloud issues. That's why it's hard for me to help those that do. I can't reproduce easily.

I have another mid-range system that allows me to run it at very close to same settings, but with decent results. Once day I'll do a vid comparing the two systems performance.

That flying was with Beta 1.08.

I have some film now of the DR.1 against the A.I. Camels and their turn to the right is wicked. Very hard to catch. I will hopefully edit and put up tonight.

My observations is that the Camel is more stable than the DR.1 and a bit faster with a wicked right turn and slow left turn.

My observations with the DR.1 so far is horrible left turn, excellent right turn, but the overall design feels very unstable. I suck with it. Some of you guys will really love that though.

I think in the MP environment they will be pretty evenly matched due to the human factor.

I don't want to critique too much because I am flying a beta FM and don't know what the final will be, but it is still fun nonetheless.

Jason

#2888991 - 10/27/09 07:24 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
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MIG77 Offline
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Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason


My observations with the DR.1 so far is horrible left turn, excellent right turn, but the overall design feels very unstable. I suck with it. Some of you guys will really love that though.


IF that is the case in final build, I think Neoqb will be hearing about it... alot wink



Quote:
I don't want to critique too much because I am flying a beta FM and don't know what the final will be, but it is still fun nonetheless.

Jason




Undertood. Thanks for the info (and put up that video fast. I have to go to sleep soon. Its getting late here :P ).


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2888993 - 10/27/09 07:25 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
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I cannot wait, and all I can say is that I'm so terribly glad I decided to upgrade my GPU today. Have just finished taking a Dolphin up for a test flight - instead of getting a steady 30FPS I'm getting a solid 70. Looks lovely and should do justice to the incoming aircraft, hopefully.

BTW Jason - check your mailbox smile

#2888997 - 10/27/09 07:36 PM Re: Sopwith Camel Promo Video [Re: MIG77]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Originally Posted By: MIG77
Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason


My observations with the DR.1 so far is horrible left turn, excellent right turn, but the overall design feels very unstable. I suck with it. Some of you guys will really love that though.


IF that is the case in final build, I think Neoqb will be hearing about it... alot wink



Quote:
I don't want to critique too much because I am flying a beta FM and don't know what the final will be, but it is still fun nonetheless.

Jason






Undertood. Thanks for the info (and put up that video fast. I have to go to sleep soon. Its getting late here :P ).


That's why I asked which way each is supposed to turn best.

Jason

Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 10/27/09 07:36 PM.
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