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#2869514 - 09/29/09 01:46 PM Problem with latest patch and stabilty  
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Has anyone noticed that with the latest patch flying any aircraft it has lost its stabilty ?
I am not saying that the real aircraft were rock solid stable as I wouldn`t know but up to and including version 1.006 the aircraft were relativly well balanced but with update 1.007 all the aircraft seem to balance on a needle point and any movement of the stick or pedals lurches the aircraft to pitch or yaw or even spin (blwdi Dolphin)
I am using the CH triple controlers (stick throttle and pedals)and had no problem till this patch.
Any one else got/had this problem ?

Simbo


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#2869528 - 09/29/09 02:05 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Simbo_Sim123]  
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The only thing I noticed so far;

When the plane first appears in flight, VC view, after the mission starts and I press the pause key to start flying. There is a slight pause before any control movement takes effect. Then any movement of the joystrick or throttle after sends the plane instantly off its heading. Then I have to get her back on course and level.

The planes feel as stable as before, well as good as the joystick sensitivity issue will allow you to control them. ..... now were did I put that RoF Survey Questionnaire?


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#2869568 - 09/29/09 02:50 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: womenfly2]  
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I know what you mean WF2 but this is more of a "Bambi on ice" situation as if any minor adjustment of input is magnified many times on that axis.No more gentle ease into a climb or a dive but WHAM PITCH UP or DOWN!!
I am scratching my head here.

Simbo


Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra m�d,
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#2869591 - 09/29/09 03:26 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Simbo_Sim123]  
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I have noticed some changes in controls but not that much


Work hard, flight right

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#2869599 - 09/29/09 03:40 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: sdflyer]  
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The Dolphin does require coordinated rudder in a tight turn otherwise it will stall out and spin, which is what it did to me first time i flew it.

Most Biplanes, even newer ones require rudder to bank and turn correctly, far more than monoplanes.

Have not noticed any change in controls really.

Del

#2869721 - 09/29/09 06:33 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Deyrick]  
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OK cheers all.


Simbo


Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra m�d,
Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.
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Tra m�r yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
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#2869779 - 09/29/09 07:30 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Simbo_Sim123]  
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No I haven't noticed this. . .but from what you describe it sounds like you might be talking about the situation after an airspawn where the plane is atuto-stabilized and you are making commands which over-ride it. . .this will lead to muted responses at first, and then an abrupt response as it goes to manual control.

I would however be more than happy to see some changes to stability particularly with respect to roll-wise stability as RoF aircraft are far too stable in roll, and lack any semblance of realistic spiral instability, sufficient overbanking tendency, roll in response to torque etc etc.


S!
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#2869810 - 09/29/09 08:12 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Simbo_Sim123]  
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I thought they might have made them easier to land and take off, removed some of that good old fashioned tail dragger unstableness. Which would be a bad thing.

I landed one without any rudder at all and it didnt even ground loop, I was kinda dissapointed. Reminded me of IL2.


And yes, they are too stable in roll, just as EcoDragon said.


About the air starts, I have found it best to jerk the stick back really quick then recenter as fast as possible. That "resets" the controls and shouldnt send your flight path off too far.

Before I take off on the ground I always work all of the axis all the way before starting up. When you start the controls are always "hard" center, kinda locked in.


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#2869835 - 09/29/09 08:37 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon

I would however be more than happy to see some changes to stability particularly with respect to roll-wise stability as RoF aircraft are far too stable in roll, and lack any semblance of realistic spiral instability, sufficient overbanking tendency, roll in response to torque etc etc.



By "roll wise" you are referring to lateral stability, right? Well if that is the case, I have noticed that Neuiport 28, Sopwith Dolphin, SE-5 have wing dihedral which actually contribute to their lateral stability.


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#2869891 - 09/29/09 10:09 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: Simbo_Sim123]  
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Cessna's and Piper's have dihedral also, and they will still work themselves into a steepening spiral without any help.

I had an RC plane that had a ridiculous amount dihedral. About the last 1/4 of the wing was turned up at about 30-40 degrees. You could do a roll with rudder no problem. It wouldn't head off into a spiral by itself, but it always kinda wallowed its way through the air.


The SE5 has quite a bit of dihedral. It would probably be more stable than the others. Anymore and it might start to wallow back and forth.


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#2869899 - 09/29/09 10:18 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: BlueRaven]  
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Originally Posted By: BlueRaven
Cessna's and Piper's have dihedral also, and they will still work themselves into a steepening spiral without any help.


I have never noticed such tendency. In steep turns 45-55 degrees most Piper's and Cessna's are very much stable and require only little correction to keep level altitude. I would argue that much bigger and heavier airplanes indeed would go to spiral and usually restricted by 30-35 degrees of bank


Work hard, flight right

My "flying machine" specs:
Motherboard: Intel DX58SO | Core i7 | X58 Chipset | Socket LGA1366 | Supports SLI & CrossFire Only
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#2869907 - 09/29/09 10:28 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: sdflyer]  
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Originally Posted By: sdflyer


By "roll wise" you are referring to lateral stability, right? Well if that is the case, I have noticed that Neuiport 28, Sopwith Dolphin, SE-5 have wing dihedral which actually contribute to their lateral stability.


Of course. . .that doesn't change the fact that: "RoF aircraft are far too stable in roll, and lack any semblance of realistic spiral instability, sufficient overbanking tendency, roll in response to torque etc etc."

The majority of conventional aircraft have some amount of dihedral (depending on wing placement, and of course design intentions), and this will increase yaw-roll coupling such that there is a rolling moment induced with rudder pedal inputs to produce a skid, as well as a very slight restorative force during a slip which does contribute to lateral stability - but not a lot, and only in uncoordinated flight. It does not change the roll-wise stability of an aircraft in coordinated flight, nor have a direct connection to overbanking tendency in coordinated flight, and the force is usually so slight in any conventional design so as to be easily overcome by other forces (turbulence, p-factor, spiral slipstream, unequal fuel burn/loading, torque effect etc). As BlueRaven mentioned, in cases of extreme dihedral which some small scale remote control designs employ to elliminate the need for ailerons at all (all turns are made with rudder as a result of slip-roll coupling) the dihedral may be so great as to overcome the other forces of flight, especially when coupled with the minimal effects of p-factor, torque, and spiral slipstream as you scale down in size. . . but this does not apply to full scale conventional designs. Instead, spiral instability is evident in all conventional full scale aircraft.

To prove the extreme roll-wise stability in RoF (as well as insufficient torque, p-factor, and spiraling slipstream/helical propwash [well, the yaw component is insufficient, the roll component is too strong]) just hit finish mission in the the Se5a with the power on and come back twenty minutes later (assuming you have an FFB stick). You will find your airplane in nearly (or exactly) wings level flight climbing along happy as can be that the pilot has long since left the airplane. . .and the other planes while less stable, are still far more stable in the roll axis than they, or any conventional real world airplane should be. The fact that there is no longer a pilot applying rudder to counteract the slip angles produced by those forces would result in a slip angle, and given dihedral effect, a roll would result, only after this roll develops would stability contribute to raising the wing, and only slightly, and only at shallow bank angles. . .it will not remove the spiral tendency intrinsic to every conventional aircraft design.

If dihedral effect, spiral slipstream, overbanking tendency, and p-factor where modelled realistically then there would be a slight skid produced by p-factor and spiral slipstream and given dihedral effect works in response to the slip(err skid) angle this should result in a rolling moment that would lead to a spiral. . .as the roll divergence begins there would be a period of slip where there would be a rolling moment opposite that of the divergence, but again, this is so slight as to be easily overcome by another force (in this case full power and no pilot applied rudder input). Of course in the real world there is always some turbulence, most planes are not in perfect rigging, have unequal fuel loads, have unequal loading or mass distribution etc and so a roll deviation will also result from these things if not from torque effects trying to roll the airplane opposite the prop's rotation. . .each of these forces alone are enough to oppose the dihedral effect in most cases.

The point is, even if you are in a high wing design with dihedral (the most roll stable case), if left alone the plane will roll off one way or the other in the real world.

Additionally, my tests in RoF also include vertical maneuvers which should eliminate any dihedral effects, and even in this case the airplane still has no expected rolling moments due to torque, and when a roll does develop it's in the opposite direction that it should be. The stability is created virtually of course, but doesn't work within the usual boundaries of dihedral.


Here's some more specific info: http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/roll.html


S!
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#2869909 - 09/29/09 10:34 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon

Of course. . .that doesn't change the fact that: "RoF aircraft are far too stable in roll, and lack any semblance of realistic spiral instability, sufficient overbanking tendency, roll in response to torque etc etc."


I totally agree with you. Everything I did read about WWI planes real flying (directly from actual pilots or from interviews) push me to agree with you.
... The problem is the lack of real measurements to consolidate this opinion.

#2869913 - 09/29/09 10:37 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: sdflyer]  
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Originally Posted By: sdflyer
Originally Posted By: BlueRaven
Cessna's and Piper's have dihedral also, and they will still work themselves into a steepening spiral without any help.


I have never noticed such tendency. In steep turns 45-55 degrees most Piper's and Cessna's are very much stable and require only little correction to keep level altitude. I would argue that much bigger and heavier airplanes indeed would go to spiral and usually restricted by 30-35 degrees of bank


Well, you might not be alone in having not noticed it, but if you look for it you will see that it's there. Even in your example of a Cessna or Piper, and well before you reach even 45 degrees of bank it should be obvious if you look for it. Next time you are flying roll into that 45 degree banked turn, and once established just look at your hands or get video of the stick/yoke during the turn and you will certainly observe that you are holding constant aileron pressure opposite the direction of the turn. . .if you were not, you'd be inverted long before you've completed that turn thanks to roll-wise instability that is a characteristic of every conventional design.

In fact you should be able to observe it in cruise flight even in a Cessna. Go out on a clam day, trim for cruise as best as you can, make no power changes after that, if you've got rudder trim, go ahead and center the ball and then put your hands in your lap and your feet on the floor (obviously using no autopilot). It will not take long before you absolutely WILL observe roll instability even from this best case scenario. Most of us correct these roll deviations without thinking about it. . .but they are still there.

Many of the biplanes I fly have dihedral either on both sets of wings, or just the lower wing. . .even going from upright to inverted I do not see a significant difference in roll-wise stability, and of course when inverted I've now got anhedral instead of dihedral. . .it's just not that strong.

I've never flown an Se5a but I've heard from multiple pilots that do fly them that they fly and feel very much like the Great Lakes, which I have flown in all attitudes. . .and like every other thing I've flown, they still have that spiral character.


S!
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#2869924 - 09/29/09 10:56 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon
Originally Posted By: sdflyer
Originally Posted By: BlueRaven
Cessna's and Piper's have dihedral also, and they will still work themselves into a steepening spiral without any help.


I have never noticed such tendency. In steep turns 45-55 degrees most Piper's and Cessna's are very much stable and require only little correction to keep level altitude. I would argue that much bigger and heavier airplanes indeed would go to spiral and usually restricted by 30-35 degrees of bank


Well, you might not have noticed it, but if you look for it you will see that it's there. Personally I think it should be obvious (including in your example of a Cessna or Piper) well before you reach 45 degrees of bank. . .but next tiem you are flying roll into that 45 degree banked turn, and once established just look at your hands or get video of the stick/yoke during the turn and you will certainly observe that you are holding constant aileron pressure opposite the direction of the turn. . .if you were not, you'd be inverted long before you've completed that turn thanks to spiral instability that is a characteristic of every conventional design.

In fact you should be able to observe it in cruise flight even in a Cessna. Go out ona clam day, ttim for cruise as best as you can, make no paower changes after that, if you've got rudder trim, go ahead and center the ball and then put your hands in your lap and your feet on the floor (obviously using no autopilot). It will not take long before you absolutely WILL observe spiral instability even from this best case scenario.


It is definitely there even on modern planes. My Cessna 150 will always work itself into a steepening right spiral if there is no correction from level cruise flight.

It doesn't take much correction to prevent it, but you are fighting it whether you know it or not.

I've noticed in ROF that sometimes my pilot is killed and the plane (usually n28) will continue flying for a long time. Usually in some sort of turn, but it doesn't get steeper. It will just make a lazy spiral down and eventually find the ground.

Also, have noticed that when the pilot dies the controls stay where they were last at. I think they should atleast center, even though that's not totally realistic.


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#2870416 - 09/30/09 05:13 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon



If dihedral effect, spiral slipstream, overbanking tendency, and p-factor where modelled realistically then there would be a slight skid produced by p-factor and spiral slipstream and given dihedral effect works in response to the slip(err skid) angle this should result in a rolling moment that would lead to a spiral. . .

as the roll divergence begins there would be a period of slip where there would be a rolling moment opposite that of the divergence, but again, this is so slight as to be easily overcome by another force (in this case full power and no pilot applied rudder input). Of course in the real world there is always some turbulence, most planes are not in perfect rigging, have unequal fuel loads, have unequal loading or mass distribution etc and so a roll deviation will also result from these things if not from torque effects trying to roll the airplane opposite the prop's rotation. . .each of these forces alone are enough to oppose the dihedral effect in most cases.

Hold on here. Wing dihedral is designed to improve lateral stability,correct? So when airplane roll into the bank a sideslip is produced toward the lower wing, which creates a flow in the opposite direction to the slip. Dihedral angle is designed so that lower wing meet this flow at high AoA than the upper wing; thus, producing more lift and tendency of airplane to roll back. Are we on the same page here?

Now if you are talking about P-factor then it's most noticeable during a climb. P-factor produces yawing motion due to asymmetric blade effect, so does and slipstream due to prop wash. As far as I know both those effect I quite noticeable in RoF on realistic settings (sure it depends on prop rotation


Quote:

Additionally, my tests in RoF also include vertical maneuvers which should eliminate any dihedral effects, and even in this case the airplane still has no expected rolling moments due to torque, and when a roll does develop it's in the opposite direction that it should be. The stability is created virtually of course, but doesn't work within the usual boundaries of dihedral.

Are you sure we are flying the same sim? Are you suing rudder pedals?


Work hard, flight right

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#2870433 - 09/30/09 05:32 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon


Well, you might not be alone in having not noticed it, but if you look for it you will see that it's there. Even in your example of a Cessna or Piper, and well before you reach even 45 degrees of bank it should be obvious if you look for it. Next time you are flying roll into that 45 degree banked turn, and once established just look at your hands or get video of the stick/yoke during the turn and you will certainly observe that you are holding constant aileron pressure opposite the direction of the turn. . .if you were not, you'd be inverted long before you've completed that turn thanks to roll-wise instability that is a characteristic of every conventional design.


That is the interesting question I do and I don't. In fact I vary a bank angle a little bit to stay at constant altitude and back pressure to manage airspeed. And sure there is bank angle however where dihedral becomes ineffective and airplane indeed wing over, but so and RoR airplanes I flown! Now you may call it instability and you will be correct, but I would argue that truly unstable airplane would roll into the spiral even after 5 degrees of bank which is not a case for majority modern GA airplanes- they are stable if you fly it at the right "flight envelope"


Work hard, flight right

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Processor: Intel Core i7-940 2.93GHz Socket LGA 1366 Nehalem 8MB CPU
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#2870465 - 09/30/09 06:04 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: sdflyer]  
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Great thread!

It's also why we need a playback feature, so we can compare inputs and effects.

I'll defer on the SE5a, but will say that the Nieuport 17 seems to be unchanged in the latest update and that it definately is effected by the torque of the rotary engine.

Indeed, I've taken to looking back to see the state of my rudder in normal flight as a double check of what I'm doing. It may sound crazy, but often I've found on visual check that I'm applying rudder without really thinking about it; not big presses on the rudder with my feet, just little adjustments to get the slip out (using the Mark One Eyeball, as there's not turn and bank indicator).

The roll does seem a bit sticky; I would have thought the roll to the right would have been much more pronounced and to the left less so. At higher speeds in particular this really doesn't seem to be the case. At lower speeds it is far more pronounced, though. I'm always careful to circle onto the approach to the left, as blipping the engine on rolls it to the right.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#2870483 - 09/30/09 06:23 PM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: TX-EcoDragon]  
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Originally Posted By: TX-EcoDragon
Next time you are flying roll into that 45 degree banked turn, and once established just look at your hands or get video of the stick/yoke during the turn and you will certainly observe that you are holding constant aileron pressure opposite the direction of the turn. . .if you were not, you'd be inverted long before you've completed that turn thanks to roll-wise instability that is a characteristic of every conventional design.


This is very noticeable with gliders. Even my Club Libelle which has a high wing and quite a bit of dihedral requires crossed controls to turn, with a bit of out-of-turn aileron required to keep a steady circle. The effect is magnified in a glider because of the large wingspan, slow speeds and tight circles. The outer wing is moving significantly faster than the inner one in a thermalling turn.

Mind you, typical glider dihedral is a lot less than on the SE5a, and I take the earlier point about free-flight model aircraft being stable hands-off if they have enough dihedral.

Cheers,

RD/Nick

Last edited by RocketDog; 09/30/09 06:24 PM.

Beyond gliding distance
#2870810 - 10/01/09 05:47 AM Re: Problem with latest patch and stabilty [Re: RocketDog]  
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Out of curiosity I flew Dolphin and let the controls go. The airplane swung left and right, dropped the nose before falling into deep spiral....I use Saitek X45 with CH rudder pedals


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Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
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