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#2854682 - 09/04/09 05:56 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Freycinet]  
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Originally Posted By: Freycinet
...and for no extra price for those who already bought the D.III.


rofl


No, seriously, get us a D.III that is a somewhat even match for the N17.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2854695 - 09/04/09 06:08 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Hellbender]  
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Having learned of the distinction between the OAW and regular version (I was blissfully ignorant until last month), it bugs me as well. I of course bought it, as I will all of the planes. I imagine they didnt even realize the difference until it was way too late in development, and hopefully they will see the reaction and make the other version down the road.

OT: Is the "Red Baron" movie ever going to get released in the USA?

#2854712 - 09/04/09 06:46 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Redcoat22]  
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=FB=VikS Offline
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We knew about MvR had Albatros built D.III (as well as Voss had), but the question is, does someone need an 160hp version D.III Albatros with different rudder? Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin (yes - we need to sell airplanes to stay alive).
I like historical accuracy too, and im for it, but what im gonna say to head managemet?
Same story about early Fokker D.VII`s - do we need an different engine covers versions (early Fokker D.VIIs) just to be 100% accurate here, or we can live with it for now?
Maybe its better to spent some time to get more other planetypes before?
Maybe in the feature, we will be able to modify airplane with one airframe (different engine + visual details with same airframe), but we cant do it now - we need to live with this kind of compromises (and only this feature will show what we can).

I mean - its better to have this kind of MvR skin than not to have it at all?


Last edited by =FB=VikS; 09/04/09 06:46 PM.

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#2854732 - 09/04/09 07:15 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS

I mean - its better to have this kind of MvR skin than not to have it at all?


Not to have it at all. After all, you're not going to release a Camel skin for Albert Ball are you?

Quote:
Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin?

Some will, some won't but if you want to have the Red Baron's aircraft as a selling point for the sim then yes, you SHOULD have released the earlier version and not the later. Then this point would be moot.

Quote:
Maybe in the feature, we will be able to modify airplane with one airframe (different engine + visual details with same airframe), but we cant do it now

So you are not planning to model the RFC version of the N.17, with the wing-mounted Vickers then? It was rather important in it's time.

Please, can you let us know your aims for RoF? Will it be a willy-nilly scattering of aircraft from all over the war, or will there be able to be meaningful scenarios with the correct aircraft for a particular time period? Can you say - 'we are doing 1st January 1918 onwards' for example?


Once upon a time there was dunkelgrun...
#2854738 - 09/04/09 07:21 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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To be honest I would rather more time be spent on making all the different variations of a plane than making a new plane. Right now the game lacks the ability to match planes up. With more variants of the different planes it will be easier for mission builders to properly match planes up as well as make more historically accurate planes. Plus it cant be as hard to make a new variant on the fokker dvii that you already have working models for than it would be to create a new plane from scratch.

Its like giving a wwii player the me109g-14 and skinning it with a Battle of Britian skin and then telling them that it makes no sense to make the me109e because it is inferior to the G-series all the while matching it up with Spitfire mkIs (that is an exaggeration just to prove a point.)

I can see the logic of doing it both ways but at the same time I prefer the other way than the way it is being done. smile

That is also not the say I am unhappy. I am enjoying the sim immensely and will continue to do so no matter what direction you go with plane selection.

Last edited by Master; 09/04/09 07:25 PM.

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#2854793 - 09/04/09 08:11 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS
We knew about MvR had Albatros built D.III (as well as Voss had), but the question is, does someone need an 160hp version D.III Albatros with different rudder? Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin (yes - we need to sell airplanes to stay alive).


But its an underpowered version that fits into an early 1917 planeset. Using that logic why would anyone buy an aircraft other then the uber planes of summer 1918, there's more to flight simming than deathmatch dofight servers. I didn't need the NP17 but I've still bought it.

Add a shopping basket to your plane shop Viks, I bet sales will go up. At the moment re-entering your card details over and over is just too much faffing around.


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#2854831 - 09/04/09 08:51 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Mogster]  
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I reckon just remove the MvR skin in the next patch, to keep the pedantry down. The open custom skins in the following patch and then we'll see all sorts of user made abhorations out there.

#2854838 - 09/04/09 08:59 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Mogster]  
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Hello, all,

Many are looking at this right to left, IMO. It's not about the skin, it's about the plane. Viks, you made Johannisthal skins, a Johannisthal purchase-award, advertised the plane with events and pilots that involved Johannisthal Albs, and then released an OAW. Why not release the Johannisthal build? That's what you were advertising. They would have had the same skins so you still would have had the same eye candy and hype, but that eye candy and hype would have been based on history.

Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin? Again, right to left. It's about the plane. Early Johannisthal Albs were not underpowered at 160 hp; they just weren't as powered as later Albs. "Underpowered" suggests they hadn't the thrust necessary to sustain useful flight and purpose, and history shows even the first production batch D.IIIs flew like hawks (hawks that lost their wings from time to time, yes, but that had nothing to do with the engine) for the job they had to do. Understand, I love the OAW D.III, but frankly it was disingenuous to tart it up and hype it as different version.

The irony is that you didn't release the Johannisthal version because you didn't think anyone would want an "underpowered" Albatros. Now, when/if you actually do release a Johannisthal version, who is going to want to buy "the same" Albatros with less power? (Besides me, of course!) Now, run it the other way: release the Johannisthal version first, THEN later you release the improved/more powerful OAW version. It would have been an upgrade that way.

Same story about early Fokker D.VII`s - do we need an different engine covers versions (early Fokker D.VIIs) just to be 100% accurate here, Yes.

or we can live with it for now? For now.

Maybe its better to spent some time to get more other planetypes before? Yes, two-seaters, even if AI. The sim is woefully anemic in this regard.

Maybe in the feature, we will be able to modify airplane with one airframe (different engine + visual details with same airframe), Good. If you make a plane that so-and-so flew, it ought to look like so-and-so's airplane. I understand you cannot do this immediately, but these airplanes had many different variations and ought to reflect such via software sold as a simulation.

I mean - its better to have this kind of MvR skin than not to have it at all? It's better to have Richthofen's plane--and Voss's, and Udet's, and Betrab's, etc. Why not put Erich Hartmann's skin on the OAW? His 109s looked awesome and he had as many victories in an OAW Alb D.III as Richthofen did. For the OAW Albs, Wsthoff and Lwenhardt (Germany's third ranking ace, after all) would have made excellent OAW skins.

Viks, I understand your business situation and need to eat but, in retrospect, perhaps releasing a different airplane would have been prudent. (I concede you may not have been able to; I don't know. I am ignorant of anything behind the scenes there.) Where's the Dr.I? It's been around forever and that thing is a guaranteed money-maker. (My rampant-speculation-based-on-nothing is the Dr.I and the Camel are being saved for Christmas).

In the end, love the sim, Viks. Looking forward to (*cough* the Gotha *cough*) its continued development. If I didn't care I wouldn't have uttered a sound.

(I just reread all that and smiled. You'd think I was discussing actual aircraft production or something. LOL I recognize this is just a fun little hobby.)

Jorgen, thank you for your very kind words. I appreciate them and am glad you've enjoyed the book; thank you for buying it. Alas, there are a couple errors. I'm logging them to post an online erratum/corrigendum, but a couple off the top of my head are:

1. Page 26, first paragraph. Idflieg underwrote the first D.III production contract in October 1916, not October 1917.

2. P.48, top left photo. That Dr.I is 114/17, not 144/17.

Yes, locating MvR's emergency landing field in 2004 was a great experience but for all my planning I could not believe my eyes when I got to Comines and saw how tall the corn was! Same at Marckebeke. I'll admit it never dawned on me that there'd even be corn planted at these locations. At least MvR's Eindecker crash site and KiA fields were plowed and well visible (there is a small sawmill at the Eindecker location that clutters things but the grounds were accessible, and they gave me permission to prowl around).

BTW, I would love to have 300 landings a year again! Taking care of little ones has dampened that considerably for now.

#2854850 - 09/04/09 09:11 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Mogster]  
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Hello =FB=VikS,

i also noticed the model of the D.III is not quite correct. Why did you not just model the first original Johannisthal version of the D.III with its early engine and fitting fin sans the later Red Baron skin version ?
I think all those basic planes should be there in correct dress, and foremost in form.
You packed the Nieuport into the sim, the original early D.III would have been the perfect adversary, if not a D.II which served long into the war parallel to the D.III. No big deal (i hope) but i would wish you correct this D.III-wise, maybe later ok.
If you're in for the Red Baron skins i wonder how much people know what he flew apart from this friggin' boring triplane, which then should have appeared first. Bring out the Camel and the Fokker tripe, and 90 percent will think the sim is complete (no i didn't say this LOL).

It is said the sim is to model the times from 1917 on, but it is now a very mixed one - some late 1918 planes for AI, and a Nieuport - so just keep the whole plane thing as correct as possible. With the existing flight model modifications you can sell a Johannisthal-built Alb. D.III separately from an OAW one. I would buy both, or even more field-modified ones if they fit to their squadrons - maybe a bit cheaper per different type (?).
I know you are tight, and have to justify all you do to the "greedy managers", but if you stay straight and do every model with your painstakingly detail as it shimmers through now, this sim will develop into a first-class simulation that has more than some 10 years of existance ahead.

Whatever, thanks for your direct reply here,
Catfish

#2854858 - 09/04/09 09:21 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Catfish]  
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Interesting thread. For what it's worth, nice to hear VikS point-of-view.

#2854886 - 09/04/09 10:06 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: JFM]  
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I want neoqb to make us an official Red Baron skin for the Noop 28.

I have recovered a piece of lost evidence which tells the real story of von Richthofen and proves that he was not actually killed but rather captured by the Allies.

Knowing full well that Germany was about to lose the war, he was given the opportunity to fly undercover for the Americans, an offer which he accepted. This saw him reunited with an old friend of his, another German baron flying undercover for the Allies: Freiherr Eberhard von Richenbcher better known as Eddie Rickenbacker.

Manfred von Richthofen (henceforth known under the pseudonym of Manuel Esteban Javier Ricardo, supposedly an American of Mexican descent) never quite attained his former level of flying expertise in his all-red Nieuport 28, although he must be given credit for actually teaching Rickenbacker everything he had to know to become a top ace like him and all of this in a crash course of only one week. As you all know, Richthofen was shot down (well, captured) on April 21 whereas Rickenbacker scored his first victory on April 29.

Some say Richthofen and Rickenbacker are actually one and the same person. Those are obviously wild and baseless speculations and should in no way divert us from the actual story of Manfred.

After the war, he settled in Belgium in the picturesque town of Bruges where he opened a small yet somewhat successful confectionery shop (aptly named Ricardo's Confectionery Shop) along with his lovely Belgian wife, Henriette.

He died unexpectedly in June 1926 of chocolate-induced liver failure.

#2854897 - 09/04/09 10:20 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Hellbender]  
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Oh, man, what a howl!

cheers

#2855056 - 09/05/09 04:17 AM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Dunkers]  
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Originally Posted By: dunkelgrun

Not to have it at all. After all, you're not going to release a Camel skin for Albert Ball are you?



What kind of nonsense is this? If you don't like the skin, then just don't use it. Simple. Problem solved. There is no reason to cry about something that's there which is optional to use. After all, autopilot, warmed up engine, time compression, icons yadda are all optional....should they get rid of those too? Give me a break.

#2855086 - 09/05/09 05:15 AM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: BuddyWoof]  
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#2855138 - 09/05/09 10:31 AM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Viks, would it be terribly difficult for the team to make the small graphic adjustments to the present D.III model and equip it with a less powerful engine and release it? - What do I know, maybe it would... But I think not, since the cockpit could be the same, from what I know.

Better yet, maybe a 3rd party volunteer could do it in his or her free time? I seem to recall that you had third party people working with the sim tools... The Siemens-Schuckert fighter we saw a model of years back.


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#2855163 - 09/05/09 12:24 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Freycinet]  
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Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Viks, would it be terribly difficult for the team to make the small graphic adjustments to the present D.III model and equip it with a less powerful engine and release it? - What do I know, maybe it would... But I think not, since the cockpit could be the same, from what I know.

Better yet, maybe a 3rd party volunteer could do it in his or her free time? I seem to recall that you had third party people working with the sim tools... The Siemens-Schuckert fighter we saw a model of years back.


I think easier for them would be to just remove MvR, Voss, etc skins and replace them with others. All this discussion would then be pointless smile


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#2855179 - 09/05/09 01:08 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: BuddyWoof]  
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Originally Posted By: BuddyWoof
Originally Posted By: dunkelgrun

Not to have it at all. After all, you're not going to release a Camel skin for Albert Ball are you?



What kind of nonsense is this? If you don't like the skin, then just don't use it. Simple. Problem solved. There is no reason to cry about something that's there which is optional to use. After all, autopilot, warmed up engine, time compression, icons yadda are all optional....should they get rid of those too? Give me a break.


OK.

Its a bit like releasing a Mk14 Spit with Battle of Britain skins, then saying well its still a Spitfire, also adding hero of the Battle of Britain in your history file for the Mk14 and suggesting it was flown by BOB pilots.

The incorrect aircraft description makes it appear that Neoqb aren't aware of the history of the aircraft, from Vik's post they are aware but are so desperate for sales that they'll post incorrect details just to slip in a MVR link.

I just don't want Neoqb to go down this don't care route.


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#2855185 - 09/05/09 01:29 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Mogster]  
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Hello,

To me it's not so much the skins but about the plane and the overall misrepresentation of its sale. From reading various posts and threads it's clear that many didn't even know there were different D.III variants; there's nothing wrong with this. The Albatros Ds did come in a host of variants and I understand that to know the differences may be Cliff Clavin minutia to many. People just saw a red Albatros in the video, read that it was used by Richthofen, associated the two with the near-century-old legend, trusted neoqb had made the proper plane, and then bought it. Now they have a plane they've learned wasn't in Bloody April and not flown by the pilots advertised (Strhle flew an OAW, however, but Boelcke died two months before the Johannisthal D.III arrived at Jasta B) but if they overlook the many but subtle differences, at least they have the skins that helped lure them into the sale in the first place. I can't speak for everyone but I'll speculate that many would not be happy if the MvR/Voss/Udet/Bertrab/Early D.III skins were then yanked from the OAW. neoqb used those skins to sell the plane; if they were gone, then not only would the customer not have the "Bloody April Star" plane they thought they were buying, the eye candy that helped lure them into the purchase would be gone, too. Then what? I don't imagine or expect a Johannisthal D.III anytime soon to get the actual planes to replace those skins.

A solutions would be to release templates so proper skins can be made for those who want them but, more importantly, in future, sell what you advertise and advertise what you sell.

#2855221 - 09/05/09 02:28 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: JFM]  
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JFM,

Although the skin accuracy is nearly irrelevant to my enjoyment of the sim, I am learning a lot from your comments here. I appreciate you taking the time to sort out some of the details.

That said, when/if it is easy enough to do so, I will be adding my own squadron's emblem (USN VFA-41) to my planes when I fly RoF online... just thought I'd let you know so you can be emotionally prepared should you ever encounter/shoot me down in MP. boom

#2855236 - 09/05/09 02:43 PM Re: Weeee!!! The Red Baron! [Re: Hedgehog]  
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JFM Offline
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I will be adding my own squadron's emblem (USN VFA-41) to my planes when I fly RoF online... just thought I'd let you know so you can be emotionally prepared should you ever encounter/shoot me down in MP. boom

hahaha I'll be flying the Kitty in the Ring machine!

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