S!,
I was just curious if SB/Pro has any wwII mods? I've been looking for a good tank sim. I had my hopes resting on TvsT & SF, but it seems that each of these titles have their own issues. My understanding is that SB/Pro is the current tank sim champion. Unfortunately, I'm more interested in WWII than modern warfare. So, the question remains, "does SB/Pro have a WWII mod?".

TIA,
HB

There is no mod for World War II, the only thing that exists is this info on how to make some changes to the tanks to simulate tank conditions of that era:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=13623&highlight=wwii
There are some skins that will give the Leopard 2A5 the German WWII paint scheme:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/282/p13_fileid/928
There also skins for the Leopard2A4 and panzer battalion markings of WWII:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/277

Actually, the original articles were written for SubSim.com, part one here, and part two here.

Both parts deal with how the mission and map editors can be used to create conditions and vehicle behavior that are similar to WW2 conditions - although still with modern tanks.

Another way of looking at STEEL BEASTS in WWII is this:
For me, the Leopard 2A4 is the modern Tiger tank because of the turret having vertical walls.
T-72 is the modern T34-85 and the T-80 is the Joseph Stalin tank (JS-1).
T34-85 is still in use, I saw footage of it in action in the Serbia/Bosnia wars.

S!,
Thanks gents. Too bad no one has tried to mod this sim for WWII. IMHO, this is what us WWII nuts really need. Now, I just have to find a copy of SBP at a reasonable price

HB

We at eSim Games have always been a bit skeptical about opening SB Pro for "mods", especially since it would require the development of an actual API and the release of certain developer tools which in turn would require maintenance and beta testing. I won't rule out that one day we may be releasing all that, but our prime concern is to make sure that there's network and file compatibility among all users, and the integrity of the vulnerability model. We've put an extraordinary amount of effort into that, so I'd hate seeing King Tigers one day with nuclear gatling guns or para-dropped Shermans.
It's easy to see all the wonderful things that mods can do, but we must not forget about possible downsides.

Hehe Ssnake we could get some MerkaGavins ;o)

Staffan

I really doubt that a bunch of guys with age averaging 45 years playing a sim that costs 125$ will create chetaing machines to inflate his ego. BUT If you want to think this way...

S!,
I understand what you're saying Snake. This the exact same problem that caused the death of many a sim, eg CFS series, problems w/ EAW, and now, problems w/ IL2. I would hate to see a highly regarded sim such as SBP go this route. I'm just being selfish wanting a real WWII tank sim instead of the so-so sims that are out there, eg RO, DH, TvT, etc.

Tell you what, I'll be first in line to be a beta tester if eSims decided to code some of the old machines BTW, what would it take to incorporate new models into SBP such as the M10, Pz IV,V,VI, t34, IS2? I would have thought that only the models would need to be built since the ballistics are already there in SBP.

HB

You would need detailed ballistic tables for each round, including penetration slope effects (modern APFSDS performs as well or better against sloped plate as against vertical plate with the same equivalent thickness, but WW2 AP rounds typically perform much worse against sloped plates unless they are very thin).

The damage model would need some adjustments to accommodate APHE and similar rounds.
The AI would need to be re-taught to fight with the hull oblique, rather than turning head-on (WW2 side armour was much closer to frontal armour than on a modern MBT). Movement logic would need adjustment to account for much slower movement rates historically (most WW2 tanks were slower on road than some modern vehicles are cross country for example).

I doubt that you will see WW2 done though - a more likely path would be the gradual implementation of earlier Cold-War vehicles (T54, M48, etc, with some T34/85 or other similar vehicles which can still be found in service in the third world). The primary purpose of SB Pro is military training, so it is always easier to add in stuff that works towards this end... WW2, although it would undoubtedly be really interesting to many, I assume doesn't really serve the current training needs.

Actually you only need part two for the main, for I included all info I could think of in that essay, but in a better format (at least I think )

Tanksim.com is an affiliated site to Subsim.com, and while the tanksim-forum is a sub-section of the subsim-forums, the Tanksim-homepage has an independent appearance not "subordinate" to the homepage of subsim.com.

I like the restrictive policy on modding very much. It prevents messing up balances of simulated components which saw plenty of time and effort to set them the way they are. Some other simulations prohibit modding of vital core components for the same reason. For example modding for the soaring simultion "Condor", which has a very sophisticated flight model, also is almost completely a no-go thing. By that they prevent online competitions being distorted by soaring planes that were created by fans but do not reflect the original soaring plane's behavior and characteristics. It also is a matter that is extremely complex, and it is not too likely that outsiders not closely familiar with that content and the wqay it is represented in the sim can adequately handle it without creating faults and over- or underestimated variables.

Cosmetic changes (sounds, looks) are okay. Functionality and simulation-content - that is something different, and where the focus lies not on gaming, but simulating, you better be hesitent to open it for modding by all. Even more so if public access to the needed data in the case of SBP sees restrictions due to military secrecy.

I would imagine that a hypothetical SB2 would be more open to modding while SB Pro will probably remain closed. That being said, a WW2 version is even less likely than SB2 simply because we are busy enough with the ongoing development of SB Pro. I mean, it's not as if SB Pro of 2009 is anywhere near where it was in 2007, or 2005.
As long as there is a significant demand by our Army customers to adjust SB Pro to the training requirements of today we can only on occasion take a stab at the past, and in those cases it's probably going to be like Lieste wrote, earlier Cold War era tanks rather than WW2 (or, while we're at it, WW1) models.

There are two other reasons. The prime reason against WW2 is from a game design point of view that it has been done to death by hundreds if not thousands of games while there are only a handful, ever, that dealt with contemporary armor in a satisfying way. I'm interested in novelty stuff, not "more of the same" regurgitations.
Second, I really loathe Nazis, and you can't separate the Wehrmacht's military achievement from the despicable political goals behind them. If I were to participate in a WW2 game that featured the east front, a Wehrmacht player would first have to take the oath of loyalty towards Adolf Hitler. How's that for a start? And each win would be rewarded by a clip showing the Einsatzgruppen rounding up another village. (Maybe I should add mass rapings as a dubious reward for the Soviet player in the late stages of an east front campaign.)

Any game that cuts out these elements effectively continues the propaganda that Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS were regular, heroic soldiers who were, unfortunately and accidentally, caught on the wrong side. In order to show a balanced historical view the player should be tasked to shoot a village in Italy or Yugoslavia for retaliation. Maybe, if he performs well, one should offer him a career path as a concentration camp ward.

It is a tempting option to blend out all this because "we're just doing entertainment" here, or "just concentrating on the military/tactical/technical side" - but IMO that simply isn't an appropriate way to deal with the whole thing. We're not talking about Jedis and Stormtroopers and Emperor Palpatine, we're talking about real history with real atrocities, real people's fates, and simplifying that for mere entertainment simply isn't my cup of tea.

I tend to agree, Ssnake, and for example I never understood some player's obession with swastikas being displayed in a WWII-era game for the sake of claimed "realism". In the tanksim forum I also rejected twice players who linked to sites where virtual WWII era players even modelled dedicated perosnal careers in German SS units. It may not have been political sites with intentional Nazi propaganda, but at least it showed plenty of lack in taste and historic education.

But let me play devil'S advocate here and ask you the question that many players would ask you anyhow. If you reject WWII simulations over references to the criminal context of their implict immoral acts and atrocities, how do you justify then to make available a military sim that also shows the explicit killing of virtual vehicles and their virtual crews? Becasue in a real modern war, politicians may or may not decide for war, but originally the soldiers fighting it are no personal enemies to each other, and still would try to kill each other. For the individual this is a moral dilemma: when being ordered, shooting at a stranger who maybe has not done nothing that supports the policies of his government over which my government declares war against his.

Again, playing devil's advocate here.

Kings and leaders in dispute not sending their armies against each other, but picking up two swords and settling the issue between just the two of them. Now that would be a massive improvement in human history, probably surpassing the importance of the invention of the wheel.

[. . .]

[. . .]

I'm not saying that I can successfully defend my philosophy against close scrutiny of logic and ethics. I'm just saying that I have no interest in doing a WW2 version of SB Pro for the reasons above. Besides, SB Pro is not promoting wars or a political agenda. There are no national marks on official textures, there are no nation names in our scenario files except for historical or at least semi-historical scenarios (of which we have very few).
Computer controlled units respect the Geneva conventions to the extent that they won't deliberately shoot ambulance vehicles. Again, the advocatus diaboli would argue that we're depicting a sanitized picture, a "clean war" which doesn't exist in reality, so we are promoting the big illusion that the governments and militaries of the world are spreading to make their agenda of war more palatable. (Of course, the same advocatus diaboli would argue against graphic depiction of violence with atrocities as a part of the possible gameplay that we would be promoting violence by aethetization and glorification - that's what makes the devil's advocate's position so easy in cases like this. He doesn't have to be constructive and can give the status quo always a negative spin unless there's perfect happiness in a new paradise for everybody).


SB Pro is primarily a tool for tactical and gunnery instruction, presented in a somewhat entertaining way (which is purely a matter of methodology; people learn better if they aren't bored to death). We're doing business with democratically legitimized governments only, and we don't stop gamers from buying the Personal Edition if they want it for their personal enjoyment (be it that they are interested in the entertainment qualities of trigger time in a virtual tank, be it out of genuine interest for the military in general, combined arms tactics, or the technology of contemporary armored vehicles).
SB Pro is what you make out of it.

Except the Griffon, Mi24, Sperwer and Leo2A4?

It still amazes me that there is no definitive WW2 Tank simulator on the market. Panzer Elite was good, but certainly not a simulator. T34 vs Tiger was assumed to be the tank sim we'd all been waiting for but that turned out buggy and featureless. I guess Steel Fury is as close as we can get, but still lacking certain things. Perhaps it's a bigger endeavor than one imagines - as WW2OL found out, still chugging along with few real improvements to tank combat.

How many other "definite tank simulators" do you know?
I mean, what's your threshold, or what are the minimum feature that a tank simulation game should have in order to deserve the attribute of being a "definite" one?

These are prototypes of a new texture system that allows decals to be placed. Blank textures wouldn't allow the modders to understand the effects of a new texture here. At some point all that will be consolidated into a package that allows the mission designer to assign specific decal textures to individual vehicles.
At that point we will go back to the default of blank decals/no national symbols.