#2836138 - 08/06/09 11:05 PM
Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
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Joined: Sep 2000
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citizen guod
Lifer
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Lifer
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My Games Need to Stay My Own by Guest Writer Helmut "RSColonel_131st" Skrdla A Counterpoint View to Dart’s Commentary on DRM http://www.simhq.com/_commentary/all_092a.html
Wisdom is knowing what's enough
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#2836188 - 08/07/09 12:44 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: citizen guod]
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Dart
Measured in Llamathrusts
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Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
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Excellent article! Btw, we're in complete agreement: I’m ultimately convinced there are good ways to protect developer/publisher investment WITHOUT time bombing the software or making the legal customer suffer more than the kiddies who run cracked pirated versions. But often it seems companies prefer to take the easy conventional way – pack in as strong a DRM as possible, leave it forever in the game, with the added benefit of data mining your user base that way – instead of the creative approach. My article's point is that a company should be able to protect their products in the first place - which we agree on. The only disagreement I have is with smaller companies - it's not that they'd go out of business, it's that their profit margins would be much smaller. I'm with you in that the size of company doesn't have any relevance if the DRM means I can't play the sim I paid for - if Rise of Flight was routinely down I'd be giving it a big rasberry. Anyhow, great job, and welcome to the SimHQ writing staff...
The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events. More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.comFrom Laser: "The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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#2836396 - 08/07/09 08:41 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Dart]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
RSColonel_131st
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
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Hehe, thanks, and thanks (for agreeing and the welcome). You do know it's about my fourth SimHQ article published? Like I recently told you about RoF - a simple promise to remove online-based DRM in the future (a year after or 18 months) or at least upon company fold-up would go a long way to restore my willingness of buying such products. If there weren't any publishers left not using online-based DRM, I couldn't make the case that there must be better ways to do it, but thankfully there are plenty of games out that work without DRM. I mean, Fallout3 really surprised me, it's not just a nice example - it's THE example of a high profile triple A title without using any DRM, and where you can keep the disk safe after initial install. And the data mining prospect really irks me, too. I'm firmly convinced if companies were willing to tackle the problem, they could work out a decent offline/online combined scheme. Like SteelBeasts Codemeter stick - which basically already has the software in place to allow either "remote-authentication" of an install over network AND a local authentication by dongle. If three or four publishers would be using a centralized store with such a software, you'd either download multiple licenses to the same dongle, or run your sims "online connected" without the need for a dongle - it could even be sold extra. To remain anonymous it would be enough to include a keycode with each game box that gives a one-time unlock for updating the dongle with your new game license. But rather than exploring such things the companies are eagerly embracing schemes that do more than just copy protection, namely harvesting user data and giving him advertisements (Steam). The added value of such systems is immense for the publishers - how many games did anyone register voluntarily back in the days when they came with a postcard in the box?
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#2836452 - 08/07/09 12:15 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Dart]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,306
Mr B
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The only disagreement I have is with smaller companies - it's not that they'd go out of business, it's that their profit margins would be much smaller.
That's debatable. Any losses due to piracy could well be made up by increased legitimate sales (from DRM-phobes) and a reduction in costs (due to not having to pay for, integrate and support a DRM scheme). Also, removal of DRM wouldn't necessarily increase piracy (it already occurs with DRM), and not all of those pirated downloads would represent lost sales.
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#2836527 - 08/07/09 02:04 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Mr B]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 40,112
20mm
Site Emeritus Honorary Forums Manager
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Site Emeritus Honorary Forums Manager
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 40,112
Tucson AZ
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That's a good read RSC, well done.
Pat Tillman (1976-2004): 4 years Arizona State University, graduated with high honors. 5 seasons National Football League player, Arizona Cardinals. Forever United States Army Ranger.
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#2837607 - 08/09/09 03:23 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: 20mm]
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,119
godzilla1985
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Pa
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Excellent must read article, Thx Colonel
"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
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#2838156 - 08/10/09 02:11 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: wheelsup_cavu]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
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Enjoyed the article. Dart and the Col. bring up good and valid points all around. It (DRM) is a problem to be endlessly debated..it is sort of a war (measure - countermeasure - new measure to defeat the countermeasure - new countermeasure - ad infinitum..) Personally - I like a CD or DVD that does not require any online activation to load, play and enjoy. I don't mind if you have to stick the thing in the tray for the game to run...a bit frustrating, but not nearly as much so as when I couldn't get rFactor to revalidate. Hunting through my old emails because I had forgotten or not saved the purchase invoice..etc.. Same with Steam..not a fan. I haven't kept up with recent DRM measures (is it TRUE that you have to be ONLINE in order to play OFFLINE Rise of Flight???) (That would be CRAZY..)..so my opinions are ill-informed. I just know that I like to pay money, and get a physical product. If given the option to download an FSX product or pay $5 more to get a box copy, I'll always go with the box copy. Just my preference. Unless the download does not require online activation. If I can get a download and an unlock code that will work forever..great. Convenient, fast, and I can burn it to a CD to save it. I used to believe that making a good product would just compel people to be honest and buy it..but I don't believe that anymore. The advent of peer-to-peer stuff has broken pirating into the mainstream. It used to be that only people with advanced computing knowledge (ISOs, RAR files, etc..) would bother to be in the pirating scene..now it is so easy that anyone can do it. That is a big change. As well, the moral/guilt quotient seems to have diminished almost completely in this younger generation. It is a cultural swing..so I can understand the desire of developers to defend against this new threat (any Joe Dude with no knowledge can now be a pirate) but it has the drawback of offending those of us that just want to buy their stuff, enjoy a good piece of software, and give credit (ie: money) where credit is due. Tough stuff. Thanks for the articles gents.. BeachAV8R
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#2838446 - 08/10/09 07:33 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: citizen guod]
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 743
Skybird
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My compliments for a balanced and fair article on a potentially flamatory topic. I agree with it almost completely, and my own reasons are perfectly listed in the article. To be fair, one should note that the "pro" essay some days earlier pretty much did a fair job, too. Just that I do not find the arguments for defending DRM convincing, and rate the negative longterm consequences as more severe than the shorttermed gains. But that author also tried to do a fair job and in a calm way. I took the freedom to raise awareness for both essays over here, if you do not mind, please: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154722
Last edited by Skybird; 08/10/09 07:36 PM.
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#2838463 - 08/10/09 07:48 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Blackdog_kt]
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,268
Flexman
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Leeds, England
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I wonder how on earth we managed before DRM.
I'm a busy chap and I would like to thank the author of this article for pointing out the online activation requirement for Rise of Flight. That was one feature that I wasn't aware of, you just saved me thirty quid.
For my part this is not an irrational fear of copy protection, it's just not fun or convenient. It's wilful non-compliance for something this consumer has had nothing but negative experience with.
If only I had waited for Empire Total War instead of pre-ordering (and pre-order bonuses are another new evil). The box arrived on my doormat, freshly sealed from Amazon. Yet I was not allowed to even install the DVD that I had in my hand, that I had paid for. Empire Total War represents thousands of man hours of work. I've played it twice, about 40 minutes total. Yes, just two times. The game is excellent but I have never come across anything so frustrating in this business for 30 years, it beggars belief. Occasionally, when I've forgotten how bad the whole 'installation denied till we say so' and set-up experience was and I think to myself "I'll give it another go", Steam wants to patch again for another 5 to 10 mins. At which point, starring at another progress bar, I loose all interest. Maybe Longbow 2 multi-player used up all my Karma.
As a direct result of DRM, my game buying habits *have* changed. I now wait a few weeks after release, never buy pre-orders, always examine the box carefully for any signs of Steam or other methods of protection. Our family spending on video games has declined which is a good thing for me. It's made me much more cautious about casual purchases and getting 'all happy' when a new box hits the shelves.
Hmm. What's worse than your game being pirated? Your game not being pirated. (With apologies to Oscar Wilde)
I ask again, I wonder what on earth we did before DRM?
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#2838513 - 08/10/09 08:58 PM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Skybird]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 198
Darth V
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Same place
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Good article rscolonel, I think DRM is an unfair way to control a product by imposing rules to the user who paid for the rights to play a game.
Here is a perfect example of customer trust. There is a game called sins of the solar empire (great space rts) it was launch without any drm or copy protection and it did well financially, what they did was to ge the upgrades you needed to register the game in their site with the game's serial number to access the download section.
I stayed away from any ED release because of the unfair limited activation on their games, i should be entitled to install the game in my computer as many times as i want or the disk physically let me, since as simmers we are constantly upgrading our machines to get better performance out of the games.
"Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!"
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#2838794 - 08/11/09 07:14 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Arthonon]
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 780
Groove
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Good read. I would like to comment on this part esecially: The music industry has already learned the hard way that DRM didn’t work for them, and found better ways to treat their legal customers. I’m sure once the first major logon-server crashes or the first major flight sim company is forced to shut down their activation servers early (to me, a matter of “when” – not “if”) users who are currently positive and defensive about DRM in any shape will learn the same thing the same hard way, and the industry might again start to care more about their customers than about the pirates – many of which never will become customers anyway, no matter how often we hear that each pirated copy is a lost sale. Making the decision to buy a DRMed product im fully aware of the possible risks im taking in buying it. What will i learn the hard way if logon servers are not there when i knew what can happen? Im not quite getting your point on this as it a free decision to buy or not to buy a product. Playing games since mid 80s im not having the feeling that the game industry isnt caring about their customers, especially not the smaller game developers. Even the major labels like EA changed their "patch policy" in recent years.
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#2838795 - 08/11/09 07:17 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Arthonon]
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Joined: Apr 2005
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JG301_HaJa
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Indeed a great article (as Dart's was some days ago) and I concur wholeheartedly with it's context. // HJ
"Live to fight another day"
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#2838806 - 08/11/09 08:03 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: JG301_HaJa]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
RSColonel_131st
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
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Groove, if you are fully aware of the possible risks, then you are in the minority. Most people still are NOT regularly participating in online boards, and a lot of software is still sold over the counter because the box looks nice. Even if there's an "internet connection required" written on the box or at amazon.com, the majority of customers who are not technically very experienced will not realize what exactly this means. Or do you think 75% of the gamer market - the majority of which are still playing offline - are aware what "Internet hops" are or how to do a traceroute and diagnose a problem with remote server connection? Do you think these people are aware of the many different ways and reasons why their game can fail to play for them?
Personally I dare say the majority of customers buying DRMed games are NOT aware that these games may be "gone" one day for no perceptible reason with nothing they can do about it - if the majority would be aware of these risks, DRM software would sell significantly worse IMHO. Right now the discussion of DRM vs. No-DRM - and the marketing of "DRM-Free" Software is happening all online in the message boards, but people regularly participating in these exchanges are NOT the majority of the game market.
What I'm basically saying is that these games are sold mostly (not for all customers, but for most of them) not DESPITE the DRM, but because of an absence of knowledge what DRM actually is, and what can happen. Even more so, if a customer can not activate or play a product - there's always a lack of negative monetary impact to the publisher, since the buyer can not usually return the product for a refund. The "free market" isn't correcting itself here, since A) a lot of people don't realize they are buying time-bombed software and B) those who run into problems can not make an impact on the publisher since they already gave the company their money.
Same as with the early music download stores - the majority of customers were NOT aware of the risk that licensing servers would die one day, and that's the only reason why the model worked in the first place.
Once the first major problems happen, a significantly larger percentage of the market will realize the problems and risks inherent with DRM. It took the outrage of Microsofts Music Store and compatibility problems with various music players before the music industry had enough customers pushing for non-DRM titles. That breaking point hasn't yet been reached with online DRMed games, they are simple too young in the mass market and the oldest of all systems - Steam - hasn't failed yet.
As for "the industry isn't caring about their customer" - I'm sorry, but you only have to look at some of the responses Starforce help desk generated for Flaming Cliffs, or some of EA's stunts on their message boards to realize they want paying unwashed peasants, not "partners" on eye level enjoying their products. Or else why are so many large publishers now forcing people to jump trough multiple hoops, including mandatory registration, so they can play their game? Why was ETW released in a super-buggy state and people couldn't even get it to install/activate, if the industry cares so much about customer experience? Why are games now on average shorter and micro-payment content is then sold to get the playable content on a level that five years ago was on the disk to start with? Why the continued attempts to ban resale of games?
There are many examples that the computer game industry - just like Big Music and Big Movies - are run by managers from the same school of thought, maximing profits as brutally as they can get away with, even if moving already in legally gray uncharted areas.
If you don't mind a counter-question, really out of curiosity and no intend to provoke: Why, if you know the risks that come with DRM, are you okay with buying software that may fail to run any day, totally out of your control? I'm really interested in the reasoning why people still buy games fully aware that they are time-bombed.
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#2838841 - 08/11/09 09:56 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 780
Groove
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If you don't mind a counter-question, really out of curiosity and no intend to provoke: Why, if you know the risks that come with DRM, are you okay with buying software that may fail to run any day, totally out of your control? I'm really interested in the reasoning why people still buy games fully aware that they are time-bombed. First of all i think you overestimate the amount of complainers about any CP on any given game. From a publishers POV this is a small minority in most cases. Okay there was this hysteria about Spore which forced EA to get rid of their DRM model. But this whole "show" inculding media was made by giving Spore bad ratings on Amazon pages. Publishers are NOT interested into the "tinfoilhat" minority out there, they are interested in sales. Im also not a friend of DRM, especially the lately introduced "you have to be online to play solo" model but it's there and in my opinion it willo spread around. Do i like it? No! So i have free choice not to buy the product. As for your question about why i buy that games (with all the DRM). Pretty simple answer, i love games and i know how much work has to be put in into every one of them (games). I buy all the sim games coming out to support the whole genre of flight sim games. Additionally the risk for me is neglible. If game XXX dont function anymore in X years i personally can live with it. That's all on my POV. Im amazed about the paranoia people have about DRM and or CPs while they browse the internet, which is under surveillance all the time, even if you use TOR or other encryptions. Even i dont fully share your POV on CPs and DRMs i still appriciate your POV which is ideological and well manmered. Next time you are in the area of Düsseldorf/Cologen, PM me and we can discuss this over some beers, they will be on me Cheers
Last edited by Groove; 08/11/09 09:57 AM.
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#2838865 - 08/11/09 11:30 AM
Re: Commentary: My Games Need to Stay My Own
[Re: Groove]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
RSColonel_131st
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
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Aye, German Beers it is then I wanted to add: I'm not concerned for privacy, I can take care of that. My "paranoia" is about really getting to like a game, investing a lot of time into learning and modifying it, just to find it will not play an evening, or never again due to external control. The more intrusive DRM models will only spread around if people are buying those games. For you, it's a clear decision based on knowing the risks, and that is perfectly fine, but I think if more people would be aware of the true extend of such systems, they wouldn't be a "tinfoil hat minority" demanding less intrusive DRM. It's just that the average customer can not be arsed to research or inform himself on such topics, just as the average voter will never really be informed on politics. If stuff then doesn't work out, there's a lot of frustration but ultimately nothing ever changes.
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CD WOFF
by Britisheh. 03/28/24 08:05 PM
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