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#2832430 - 08/01/09 02:01 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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LOL, I wouldn't look for a quick turn around!

I think I wrote that article in February, and it just made it on the page.

But I look forward to it, Colonel.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2832641 - 08/01/09 07:15 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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citizen guod Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Yeah, but this is for the Colonel and not you....

WinkNGrin


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#2832759 - 08/02/09 12:34 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: citizen guod]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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D'oh! RHIP is a real mofo!

[edit]

Beware, Oberst - that's how it started with me; one little article...

Last edited by Dart; 08/02/09 12:35 AM.

The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2832768 - 08/02/09 12:58 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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citizen guod Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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lol @ Dart


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#2833516 - 08/03/09 07:26 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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KCLT
Originally Posted By: Dart
Beware, Oberst - that's how it started with me; one little article...


Then there's the chains. And the cold. And then they take away your water...the beatings..oh..the horror.. The horror..



#2833635 - 08/03/09 01:30 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Great article Dart!

Lately I have been rather alarmed with the way DRM's have been going, and I was very disturbed that Black Shark was going with activations/deactivations as I had been burned on that one not long ago with a sailing simulation, but it appears that ED is handling this very well so far. And the online requirements of Rise Of Flight is not so bad as long as the servers remain in service.

I would like to think that if a company is about to go tits-up, and no other company is planning to purchase the rights to the software, that they do the responsible thing and patch the simulator to remove the DRM so that long standing customers will continue to be able to enjoy the software in the absence of support.


--2GvSAP_Chief
http://www.2gvsap.org
#2834261 - 08/04/09 07:07 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: 2GvSAP_Chief]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Your second paragraph is also something covered in my commentary wink

Yeah Guys, I know, it's a dark and evil road down to the SimHQ autor circle.

But hey, it beats standing in a corner of Hyde Park on a soapbox.

#2834346 - 08/04/09 12:23 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: 20mm]  
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I'm sorry, but this article pretty much sums up in one article why I am AGAINST DRM

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/...ork-forever.ars

Think about this, you aren't buying a product, you are renting it with DRM. The RIAA and MPAA are attempting to make it so you don't have a perpetually working product with DRM, and as such, they are trying to use DRM to lock you in to renting it. This is why I am against DRM. DRM is ineffective, and only a minor inconvienence to pirates, the only DRM i can see as truly effective is FADE on the various BIS and Codemasters games. FADE is effective, however it is the only one truly effective, as it isn't based on restricting you on activations or limiting what you can install on (I have to use cracks on anything protected by normal DRM to use it on linux through WINE), instead what it does is it detects if a CD key is online multiple times at the same time, and if so, it kicks it in, and starts to degrade your gameplay until you buy a legit copy with a legit cd key, rendering the pirated copy unplayable because of effects on gameplay rather than just locking you out.

#2834488 - 08/04/09 03:32 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: theflyboy]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Quote:
Think about this, you aren't buying a product, you are renting it with DRM.


Um, you never actually ever owned the software you paid for. You got a license for use - what's changing is the nature of that license. Some of it is okay, some of it isn't, IMHO - and yeah, it's just my opinion.

Now, then, to the article: The lawyers will lose the case, as the precedent for tools for unencryption may flow from the one set by VCR's. When the legitimate use of a thing far outweighs the illegal ones (for VHS, it was recording and replaying broadcast and purchased/rented content), one can't get rid of it. That's why nobody's going after bit torrent software: while it is the preferred modality of software piracy, its legitimate uses are far more numerous and important.

Colonel, I had a bit on the software resale market, but cut it out to keep the article less than novel length. The truth is that PC software doesn't have much of a resale market, and simulations are even less of one. Go on eBay and see how many PC games and sims are being sold second hand. Almost none!

So while it's true that modern DRM in many ways makes the license of use non-transferrable, in practice not many people were selling their old PC games. Console yes, PC not so much.

Guys, this article is just my opinion on things, and an attempt to get a little less hype into the discussion and establish that there is in fact a middle ground between Free Code For All and Company Shill.

I'm excited that Herr Oberst threw his hat in the writing ring - first because it firmly shows that SimHQ's staff is truly diverse in opinion and background, and second because I'm an arrogant cuss and need to be countered from time to time. wink


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2834527 - 08/04/09 04:24 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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FALAES Offline
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I read the article and had a glance at the comments here in this topic. Though the former is well written and balanced I consider it incomplete and I wasn't able to track the missing item in this discussion.

I'm talking about trust.

While not trying to defend or even promote 'thieves' of intellectual property (that is simply what they are in my eyes) I expect from everybody who sells stuff to me mutual trust in the payment and conduct of our exchange. If I pay a gaming company a certain amount of money I don't want to be criminalized and exposed to the suspicion of theft just by buying one of their products (and certainly not by an immature and crappy copy-protection that is an affront to my computer skills).

If I invest 50$ in a good game I do this in trusting and honoring this company's ability to develop such a good game.
What I feel to receive in exchange - if the game is copy-protected - is mistrust in my ability in to exercise circumspectly my rights AND my responsibilities as rightful owner of the license.

So I feel myself under the generalized suspicion to pirate/torrent/rapishare/crack the game as soon as the disc spins in my computer's drive - which would be simply hilarious if it wouldn't include all the technical problems we have been through with the various copy-protections.

And - as sorry as I am - if the arguers say one pirated copy equals one lost sale than the opposite is true for me. I didn't buy several games because of their copy protection and the inherent mistrust that comes with it and copy-protections raised the bar very high, to which I am willing to exchange mistrust for a gaming-experience.

Or, to expand the example with the car: should I ever buy a car, I will certainly not drive by the vender's shop every day just to allow him to check if I don't share it with my friends.

My investment of money and time in a game purchase has to be answered with trust in my abilities.


"To fly is necessary. To live is not." - Melli Beese
#2835079 - 08/05/09 10:48 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Originally Posted By: Dart
Colonel, I had a bit on the software resale market, but cut it out to keep the article less than novel length. The truth is that PC software doesn't have much of a resale market, and simulations are even less of one. Go on eBay and see how many PC games and sims are being sold second hand. Almost none!

[SNIP]

I'm excited that Herr Oberst threw his hat in the writing ring - first because it firmly shows that SimHQ's staff is truly diverse in opinion and background, and second because I'm an arrogant cuss and need to be countered from time to time. wink


Second hand software keeps the publishers on their toes. While flightsims generally have a longer life, games with 10h single player are frequently resold once finished - or rented, which should be an incentive for publishers to include replayability or at least decent multiplayer functions. Once games are by default tied to a person, they can ignore this, so I'm very much in favor of resaleable games - even though I don't generally sell my own.

We'll see how long Doug needs to get the article up wink it's not generally a point-by-point counter commentary, I'm rather focusing on Black Shark (limited activations) and RoF to point out the problems with online-based DRM (which you found acceptable in your commentary, but my opinion is obviously different wink

As usual, it's not gonna be about who's right and who's wrong, but giving people the necessary information to decide for themself.

#2835822 - 08/06/09 02:20 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: citizen guod]  
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Mr B Offline
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Quote:
No genuinely held article of faith can ever successfully be reasoned against.


And yet the article spends it's entirety trying to do exactly that....

Quote:
DRM measures are meant to hinder piracy.


And yet they also have the purpose of making piracy (or just plain old non-purchase) more attractive, because a pirated copy would offer me more freedoms and rights then a DRM'ed original. By being a loyal customer and buying software, I'm effectively being penalised. Whereas a downloaded copy from Bittorrent allows me to make backup copies, play the game for as long as I wish, and reinstall as many times as I like, a bought copy often deprives me of these abilities. In some cases, such as the ability to make backup copies, I'm losing rights that I'm entitled to by law. It's not for a corporation to arbitrarily decide to waive rights to which I'm legally entitled.

Quote:
The IL-2 Series was officially unprotected about five years after publication, and at eight years old is showing the length of its tooth. The fact that it was broken for mods probably gives it another five or six years of broad appeal (if not more). But the IL-2 series is a huge exception to the rule, which is why it's rightfully called a landmark simulation.


Really? All of the following have active communities, to the best of my knowledge:
- Jane's F-15: 10+ years
- Jane's F-18: 8+ years
- Jane's USAF: 9 years
- EAW: 10+ years
- Falcon 4.0: 10+ years

I'm sure I could come up with more but I'm pressed for time. Incidentally, all of those games have outlived their publishers. With many DRM systems, all the users of those titles would be left without a chair.

Quote:
In fact, I’d be far more concerned about hacking tools being slipped into a bit torrent version of a simulation than from the one legitimately bought.

Indeed, this is silly on its very face, as it supposes that a version of software that has been altered by unknown third parties is actually safer to the security of a computer system than that which is directly from the manufacturer.


False dichotomy. You're implying that my choices are either buying a legit copy, or downloading a cracked version. The third choice is obtaining neither. When compared to installing nothing on my computer, installing a bunch of junk written by some unaccountable 3rd party is a pretty lousy alternative.

Quote:
Here in the Atlanta area we had a good two weeks where the gasoline distribution system shut down — and I didn’t hear one person hold the manufacturer of their vehicle responsible for the inability to drive their cars or trucks because of it.


Because consumers want gasoline powered vehicles. In most instances, the ability of the vehicle to use gasoline is a feature, because it allows the purchaser to make use of a cheap, effective and widely distributed fuel source. In almost all cases this is a good thing, so consumers will happily tolerate the occasional 3rd party issue.. Connectivity requirements, on the other hand, provide nothing of value to the consumer, yet impose significant restrictions, so there is no reason to tolerate it. The equivalent would be if Ford offered a vehicle that ran on a substance only available on the surface of the moon. In that case, if supply was disrupted, you bet people would be blaming Ford for choosing such an inconvenient source of energy.

Edited for spelling.

Last edited by Mr B; 08/06/09 02:34 PM.
#2835876 - 08/06/09 03:24 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Mr B]  
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Blackdog_kt Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mr B

Quote:
In fact, I’d be far more concerned about hacking tools being slipped into a bit torrent version of a simulation than from the one legitimately bought.

Indeed, this is silly on its very face, as it supposes that a version of software that has been altered by unknown third parties is actually safer to the security of a computer system than that which is directly from the manufacturer.


False dichotomy. You're implying that my choices are either buying a legit copy, or downloading a cracked version. The third choice is obtaining neither. When compared to installing nothing on my computer, installing a bunch of junk written by some unaccountable 3rd party is a pretty lousy alternative.


Or you can do both...wait until a crack is out, buy the game and then download the "fix" for it. You have a legal game copy and are entitled by law to make backup copies, no matter what any TOS or EULA document states (national law is above that). Making backup copies is your right by law, you have a receipt, so nobody can rain on your parade.

I do this with most of the games i buy and i've never had any security related problems at all, because i download these fixes from reliable sources. The reason i crack my legally bought games is that i simply don't want to subject my discs to wear and tear. Why? Well, simply because the guys who give me the "license" to use their product will not send me a new disc if my original one gets damaged, even though i still have the license they'll tell me to get stuffed and buy a new copy, which more or less amounts to them stealing my legally purchased license. Well, if they can twist and turn things the way it suits them i can too and to top it off, i'm not stealing but merely exercising what is my right by law. They can't hold a candle to that and they know it.

#2836196 - 08/07/09 12:54 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Blackdog_kt]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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And that's the grey area of a "no-CD" executable, one were I personally can live in.

The IL-2 series was a good example of this. In the first iterations of the sim, the CD had to be in the tray to play. Ug. Some smart guy came up with a .dll file that eliminated the check; it was one small file that required the other 99.99% of the code in order to work. Yes, some used it as part of a full bittorrent, but most legitimate users also grabbed it.

Oddly enough, when UBI started getting a lot of problems with the CD checker, they published the rts.dll on their support site, putting everyone back in compliance with the EULA!

However...

Quote:
Because consumers want gasoline powered vehicles. In most instances, the ability of the vehicle to use gasoline is a feature, because it allows the purchaser to make use of a cheap, effective and widely distributed fuel source. In almost all cases this is a good thing, so consumers will happily tolerate the occasional 3rd party issue.. Connectivity requirements, on the other hand, provide nothing of value to the consumer, yet impose significant restrictions, so there is no reason to tolerate it.


Um, sorry, broadband in the West is pretty much like gasoline: cheap, effective, and widely distributed.

Except gasoline is a helluvalot more expensive than broadband! Trust me, in the two weeks of no gasoline supplies in the larger Atlanta Metropolitan area, nobody was happily tolerating anything. We all learned just how restricted our unrestricted use of automobiles really was.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2837046 - 08/08/09 11:48 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Dart]  
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Pirate Offline
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My personal principles are easy, do NOT support crappy software developers and DO support the good ones. That's why I try out most software before I buy.
I was a paying customer of crappy software before, I can't say I'm happy knowing to have paid a lot of money for crappy games like Battlefield 2.

That's for instance why EA games doesn't get my money anymore, since they don't understand how to keep me happy.
Valve, Oleg and BIS have my warm monetary support. I'd even pay them more(!) for a copy of their software if only they asked for it. But weirdly enough, Valve is the company which says games prices are too high and Olegs and BIS software prices are the first ones to drop dramatically only weeks after they were released.

I will keep trying before buying and if I have to, without permission. And the companies who make the best software get what they deserve. Their CD/DVD boxes will proudly shine on my shelves. And the companies that can't make quality software/music/movies/books/etcetera? Screw them.

My nickname has nothing to do with piracy, but everything with mountain goat Marco 'il pirata' Pantani.

#2837091 - 08/08/09 02:39 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Pirate]  
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20mm Offline
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20mm  Offline
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Sierra Hotel

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Quote:
I will keep trying before buying and if I have to, without permission.


Please don't advocate piracy on this site. And yes, I read your small type disclaimer.


Pat Tillman (1976-2004):
4 years Arizona State University, graduated with high honors.
5 seasons National Football League player, Arizona Cardinals.
Forever United States Army Ranger.
#2837319 - 08/08/09 10:31 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: 20mm]  
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Pirate Offline
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I'm sorry 20mm, just expressed my views and opinions. Did't know I had crossed the line there.

To everyone: don't do anything illegal, even if it's on the internets!

#2837558 - 08/09/09 01:54 PM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: Pirate]  
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Appreciate that.

Obviously, we do, and have always allowed discussion about piracy and its effects and counter measures.

It's the advocating that crosses the line.


Pat Tillman (1976-2004):
4 years Arizona State University, graduated with high honors.
5 seasons National Football League player, Arizona Cardinals.
Forever United States Army Ranger.
#2837857 - 08/10/09 01:21 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: 20mm]  
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mlc82 Offline
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Ft. Worth, Tx
The attempt to quell the "what if I can't play my game in 10 yrs" argument being "something newer and better will just replace it anyway!" is a horrible one IMO. Using a game to reinforce said argument that doesn't require any sort of online activation wasn't such a good idea either.

Anyone seen anything "Newer and Better!" than Age of Rifles lately? How about Deus Ex, System Shock 1 and 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 and 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Vampire: Bloodlines, or the original Baldur's Gate saga? Anyone? All of these are still loved and played today, many are quite old (over 10 yrs for many of the above now), not one has seen a "successor" to date that was anything close to the old ones gameplay wise, and not one would be playable anymore if you depended on the companies who made them still being up and running.

Edit: A few of the above (fallouts, jagged alliance) are now available on gog.com and are bad examples. My fault.

Last edited by mlc82; 08/10/09 01:41 AM.
#2841085 - 08/14/09 05:45 AM Re: Commentary: Piracy, Starforce, and Connections, Oh My! [Re: mlc82]  
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Blade_RJ Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
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Hotshot

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brasil
The article sucked....i'm totaly against the connect to play, what if you go to a remote part without internet ? @!$$% you, thats what. If other games follow this, i won't be buying them. Protect your product but dont censor your consumer.

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