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#2827470 - 07/26/09 10:39 PM Can you buy a used copy?  
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Can you buy and used copy of game and make it work?


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#2827477 - 07/26/09 10:44 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Warbirds]  
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I would wait for someone who is running a used copy to give you the go ahead and all the specific details of how it works.

I have not read a post as yet from anyone running a used copy of ROF.

This issue should become clear very quickly, IMHO.

I expected a developers response before now but the communications seems a bit slow so far.

Last edited by Buddye1; 07/26/09 10:46 PM.

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#2827685 - 07/27/09 06:39 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Buddye1]  
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Problem-free if the one who sells just gives you the email address and password he used. So always a good idea to use a freebie gmail for logging in.

These are not the official Neoqb forums, don't know if they wrote about it on their forums.


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#2827713 - 07/27/09 08:14 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Freycinet]  
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Hi,
maybe you could change your eMail adress connected to your account at the official RoF site to another one and then sell it with the new one ? The new owner can then once more change it a.s.o.

Greetings,
Catfish

#2828450 - 07/28/09 04:41 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Catfish]  
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Since Neoqb has all of that info along with all of your stats, the best scenario would be, in the event of a re-sale, for them to delete your account to free up the disk and code key for a new user. Pretty simple.


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#2828457 - 07/28/09 05:08 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Cameljockey]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Let me clear this up. If you buy a used copy, neoqb will not give you a new key. The previous owner must give you the entire account.

Jason

#2829308 - 07/29/09 02:13 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
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Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Let me clear this up. If you buy a used copy, neoqb will not give you a new key. The previous owner must give you the entire account.

Jason


Jason:

Does that mean some one can sell their copy down the road if they aren't happy with it?
I had the impression before that that wasn't allowed from comments made in the past.

I know that will probably be a very small percentage of buyers, but I've always thought it would be best to humor your customers. So, how would they go about giving the used copy buyer their "entire account?"

Exactly what does that mean?

Thanks,


rabu ...[|8~'

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#2829411 - 07/29/09 05:18 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: rabu]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Neoqb will not support used copies in any way. The game is designed to be sold once. If you must buy a "used copy" don't just buy someone's disk and code. neoqb will not give you a new code.

Read my statement again. That's the last I intend to say about used copies.

Jason

#2829458 - 07/29/09 08:04 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: rabu]  
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Originally Posted By: rabu
So, how would they go about giving the used copy buyer their "entire account?"

Exactly what does that mean?

Thanks,


Pretty clear: access to the email used for RoF and the password.

There's nothing easier than creating a free gmail account and having it forward to your ordinary email (so you don't need to log in to and out of several accounts). I am guessing that most of us have a "spam mail" we use like that. I certainly don't give out my ordinary mail address for all purposes.


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#2829595 - 07/29/09 12:29 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Freycinet]  
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Not only is that a violation of the ROF TOS but it is also a violation of the gmail TOS... not that anyone seem to care.

#2829605 - 07/29/09 12:45 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Master]  
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Just as no one seems to care that "Designing a product to be sold only once" would likely violate a bunch of EU laws. Not to be provocative towards Jason, but I don't think Aerosoft would get away in court with that same sentence.

To be more precise, the German copyright law knows a clause that specifies the copyright holder loses the right to dictate sales terms once the product has been sold. ("Erschpfungsgrundsatz")

German Legal Information:
http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/erschoepfungsgrundsatz.html?search=Gebrauchtsoftware

Microsoft lost a case against a company specializing in used-software sales based on this. In fact this also means that OEM licenses can be legally resold, and the above link explicitly states examples of clauses which are legally void - first of all a restriction on resale is in that list.

Since Aerosoft is a publisher based in Germany they would likely find it very hard to enforce in court a block on resale of their game, once it's sold to a legitimate customer.

Again, I don't write this to be provocative, but because I don't see why people should not be informed about their rights. It's way to common in software and computers that companies "make up" terms and customers don't properly claim their rights for lack of knowledge.

Jason's statement may be correct as it relates to US Copyright laws, I can't verify that, but obviously if resale must be legally allowed in Germany, NeoQB can not flat out state they will prohibit it.

#2839435 - 08/12/09 02:38 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
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Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Neoqb will not support used copies in any way. The game is designed to be sold once.


That is complete nonsense! Absolutely ridiculous.

While I am not downplaying the quality of ROF as a sim, I believe your - 777 Studios - conditions to owning your product are laughable. It lacks sound judgment and sensibility.

It's the worst implementation of DRM so far.
It makes Starforce look like an open barn.

#2839455 - 08/12/09 03:26 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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No it doesnt, starforce ruined more than a few expensive cdrw drives at my house and at my place of work. ROF's CP is not even in the same ball field as starforce.

#2839456 - 08/12/09 03:31 AM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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Originally Posted By: aRareKindOfMonster
Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Neoqb will not support used copies in any way. The game is designed to be sold once.


That is complete nonsense! Absolutely ridiculous.

While I am not downplaying the quality of ROF as a sim, I believe your - 777 Studios - conditions to owning your product are laughable. It lacks sound judgment and sensibility.

It's the worst implementation of DRM so far.
It makes Starforce look like an open barn.


Don't be a moppet and finish reading his entire reply.

#2840746 - 08/13/09 07:05 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Sim]  
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I read his whole post, as a matter of fact, I've read every post in the thread, and he's not being a "moppet". I think it's ridiculous too. Many have registered their game (myself included) with their regular email address without knowing beforehand that they'd have to give said email address and password to the new owner/renter if they wanted to sell the game/rental contract.
I purchased (rented) everything RoF has to offer so far. It took a while for me to come around to purchasing (renting) it because I had quite a few reservations. The "always online" requirement was the biggest one. But, foregoing all of my doubts and reservations, to "support the genre" I took the plunge anyway. The only reservation I have left is, what happens if Neoqb doesn't survive? Even while purchasing/renting new content, that thought is still in the back of my mind, and the question has been asked before, but never answered. If there is no Neoqb, will I be able to enjoy RoF, the best damn WWI aircraft (not air warfare) simulator to come down the pipes in quite a while, or will I have a nice coaster and a few fond memories? I reckon, to Neoqb, failure is not an option.

Here's hoping they succeed,
CJ


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#2840835 - 08/13/09 08:38 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Cameljockey]  
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"The only reservation I have left is, what happens if Neoqb doesn't survive? Even while purchasing/renting new content, that thought is still in the back of my mind, and the question has been asked before, but never answered. If there is no Neoqb, will I be able to enjoy RoF, the best damn WWI aircraft (not air warfare) simulator to come down the pipes in quite a while, or will I have a nice coaster and a few fond memories?"

Well, that's it in a nutshell isn't it?

I own RB3D, FE, OFF:BH&H and SD:WWI (although the latter's off me hard disk at the mo). Any time of day or night I can fire these games up and play them. I'm beholden to no-one. I *own* them - I didn't rent them.

It is, more than the 'constantly online' nonsense, the one thing that keeps my hand away from my wallet - I'll wait until I can see that NeoQB are prospering with their business model before I consider buying. Why on Earth shouldn't I? Why would I buy a game that might be as much use as a drinks coaster this time next year?

Now *that* consideration puts the buying a used copy thing into a very stark relief.

#2840848 - 08/13/09 09:01 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: SimonC]  
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Originally Posted By: SimonC
"The only reservation I have left is, what happens if Neoqb doesn't survive? Even while purchasing/renting new content, that thought is still in the back of my mind, and the question has been asked before, but never answered. If there is no Neoqb, will I be able to enjoy RoF, the best damn WWI aircraft (not air warfare) simulator to come down the pipes in quite a while, or will I have a nice coaster and a few fond memories?"

Well, that's it in a nutshell isn't it?

I own RB3D, FE, OFF:BH&H and SD:WWI (although the latter's off me hard disk at the mo). Any time of day or night I can fire these games up and play them. I'm beholden to no-one. I *own* them - I didn't rent them.

It is, more than the 'constantly online' nonsense, the one thing that keeps my hand away from my wallet - I'll wait until I can see that NeoQB are prospering with their business model before I consider buying. Why on Earth shouldn't I? Why would I buy a game that might be as much use as a drinks coaster this time next year?

Now *that* consideration puts the buying a used copy thing into a very stark relief.


For my part, being able to enjoy flying again is worth far more to me than the relatively small cost of the sim and planes I have so far, and is a big part of why I was an early adopter of ROF.

Still, you make a perfectly valid point. Here's my opinion as I posted on the ROF site in response to a member with the same concern:

Originally Posted By: "Stickgrip"
The only discomfort I have is If they deside to pull the plug we are all screwed with a disc. that will be worthless.


Originally Posted By: "Gunloon"
You know, I've thought about that very issue. My conclusion is that if neoqb were to close up shop, the last thing they'd do before turning the lights out would be to deactivate the online requirement...if for no other reason than self interest.

Think about it, the devs are not anonymous, and if they did pull the plug without freeing their customers to continue enjoying the sim in its latest state, they'd lose all future credibility with anyone who had the slightest knowledge of their history. It's one thing to have a business fail, quite another to destroy the utility of that business' product...sort of a 'scorched earth' practice. Would you want to give someone who'd left their previous customers stuck in the desert any support? I sure wouldn't.

If the team ever does fold, I bet they'd issue one last update turning off the DRM. It's not like it would cause them financial loss at that point, and unless they want to retire to some remote corner of the globe to change spark plugs for a living, they wouldn't want to have an indelible stain on their record.

Hopefully we won't have to worry about that scenario any time soon, especially if neoqb stays on the ball and comports themselves as they have; I've seen nothing but integrity and a sincere desire to make this a superior sim. Personally, I'm looking forward to years of good experiences with ROF and want to see them around a long time!

just my two cents

[MF] Gunloon



I should add that if that unhappy event were to occur, it would also behoove neoqb to make available a comprehensive patch, discretely downloadable, to ensure that anyone who bought the sim could upgrade it to the same state as everyone else's at any time. I don't think either turning off the DRM or making one comprehensive patch available would involve more than the barest trouble or expense and would be the least they could do to help their supportive customers.

As I mentioned, if they were to fold and leave their buyers stuck, their names would be mud in the community...a burned bridge whose memory would follow them forever.

Sheesh, dismal talk. Like funeral arrangements, it's something I don't want to dwell on, since I'm enjoying ROF so much now!

Let's hope that ROF has a long and happy life thumbsup

[MF] Gunloon

Last edited by Gunloon; 08/13/09 09:02 PM.

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#2840862 - 08/13/09 09:21 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Gunloon]  
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Anyone else think that there is something wrong when things like this have to be discussed about a game?

It's a freaking game! It's not like business software that costs thousands of dollars. This form of DRM is completely overkill and doesn't even consider the end-users home situation. Believe it or not, people still live in rural areas where dial-up is the norm. ISP servers go down, RoF login server has already gone down once, and, heck, sometimes your home connection gets FUBAR'd. If it's Christmas time and I want to play RoF and my router fries, I will be waiting to play a single player game until I can buy a new router.

Then you have the fact you don't 'own' the game or your account. I wouldn't be surprised if the EULA states somewhere that selling your account info is forbidden because you don't technically own it.

Just go buy a new copy. Because even if you get the account info from someone, they will ALWAYS be able to access that e-mail address and reset the password in-game.

#2840868 - 08/13/09 09:32 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Counterman]  
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Counterman, the online and bandwidth requirements are clearly stated in RoF info. If you decide to buy it although you're on an intermittent 28kpbs dial-up connection then that is your problem for not living up to the minimum requirements.


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#2840916 - 08/13/09 10:46 PM Re: Can you buy a used copy? [Re: Freycinet]  
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Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Counterman, the online and bandwidth requirements are clearly stated in RoF info. If you decide to buy it although you're on an intermittent 28kpbs dial-up connection then that is your problem for not living up to the minimum requirements.


I wasn't talking about myself. I am talking about customers in general and by having these kinds of requirements you are limiting an already limited interest game to people. If you were developing a game why would you do that? So you can thwart a few hackers?

A cynical thought I just had which might not be huge, but the whole account thing could be there for other reasons. When a person sells their game or a place like Gamestop sells it, they are the ones that get the sales. Having an account login tied to each key, basically forces people to buy the game new. This allows people like Neoqb and Jason's 777 to make money, rather than an unsatisfied customer recouping some of his money.

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