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#2725818 - 05/16/09 01:06 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Wolfar]  
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WWBrian and I had a good discussion about someone wondering why anyone would buy another ROF German fighter if Neoqb was including the Fokker D.VII in the sim's initial release.

They failed to realize (or understand) that it was the initial production model with the 180hp engine that was included in the intitial release, and not the daunting Fokker D.VIIF with the BMW engine, which gave the aircraft its real reputation. wink

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2725827 - 05/16/09 01:23 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: FlyRetired]  
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Originally Posted By: FlyRetired
WWBrian and I had a good discussion about someone wondering why anyone would buy another ROF German fighter if Neoqb was including the Fokker D.VII in the sim's initial release.

They failed to realize (or understand) that it was the initial production model with the 180hp engine that was included in the intitial release, and not the daunting Fokker D.VIIF with the BMW engine, which gave the aircraft its real reputation. wink


Aircraft with the new BMW engine were usually, but not always, designated D.VII(F). The first entered service with Jasta 11 in late June 1918. While pilots clamored for the D.VII(F), production of the BMW engine was very limited and the D.VII continued to be produced with the 134 kW (180 hp) Mercedes D.IIIaü until the end of the war.


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#2725835 - 05/16/09 01:30 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Wolfar]  
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Indeed, and older airframes were up-engined too.

Rank has its priviledges.

#2725841 - 05/16/09 01:35 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: FlyRetired]  
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Originally Posted By: FlyRetired
Indeed, and older airframes were up-engined too.

Rank has its priviledges.


Postwar Service

The Allies confiscated large numbers of D.VII aircraft after the Armistice. The United States evaluated 142 captured examples.[4] France, Great Britain, and Canada also received large numbers of war prizes.

Other countries used the D.VII operationally. The Polish deployed approximately 50 aircraft during the Polish-Soviet War, using them mainly for ground attack missions.[5] The Hungarian Soviet Republic used a number of D.VIIs, both built by MAG and ex-German aircraft in the Hungarian-Romanian War of 1919.[6]

The Dutch, Swiss, and Belgian air forces also operated the D.VII. The aircraft proved so popular that Fokker completed and sold a large number of D.VII airframes that he had smuggled into the Netherlands after the Armistice. As late as 1929, the Alfred Comte company manufactured eight new D.VII airframes under licence for the Swiss Fliegertruppe.


Salute!
Wolfar

20 Year US Navy Retired

Former Squadron CO and founder:
1997~2003
JG2, JG26, Strike Masters
Simulations: Red Baron mega multiplayer, EAW, SDOE, To many to list.
#2725973 - 05/16/09 05:15 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe1960

By his death MvR missed flying one in combat by about 3 or 4 days. I wonder if he had been flying one instead of the Dr. 1 would his last dogfight still have lead to his death?

Another idle historical speculation that tends to lead to hot multi page threads among the devoted aficionados! Ah! We'll leave that for another time...


I think that his final encounter was not much of a dogfight. He died mainly because he went against everything a fighter pilot's experience dictates.

Target fixation? Check. Behind enemy lines? Check. Separation from the rest of the flight? Check. In my mind's eye, i can see a red Dr.I hunting a newbie at treetop height, with total disregard for positioning and situational awareness, then a second Camel dives and let's rip on the Dr.I in conjuction with the allied AA guners. Who knows, maybe the machine gunnners had been firing on him for some time and he ignored them. Or the Camel pilot simply boomed and zoomed him. I think the latest research says he was kiled by the machine gunners however.

In any case, i doubt a D.VII would have done him much good if he went about flying that engagement the same way. Maybe he would be able to close the distance faster and get guns on target in time at the start of his attack, since the D.VII was faster than the triplane. Then it would have ended right there, he would have shot down that rookie Camel pilot. But if we suppose that he follows him down to the deck as he did with the Dr.I and does the same mistakes, it's highly probable the outcome would be the same.

#2726003 - 05/16/09 06:15 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Blackdog_kt]  
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I contend Richthofen's distance behind the line wasn't his problem 21 April. That day he was only two or three miles across—that’s nothing in an airplane—and he’d been over the lines before; the British did it on an hourly basis. The big problem was his extremely low altitude behind the lines—take that same altitude and place MvR at the front and he wouldn’t have been in any better position (e.g. Mannock). However, put MvR at 10,000 feet and he would have been in a much better position both at the lines and two or three miles behind them. That altitude certainly would have removed all danger from MG and small arms fire, which is what killed him. Brown’s attack, although spirited, was ineffective; it didn’t even drive MvR away.

I agree with BDkt, that all conditions of 21 April being the same (one jammed gun, one intermittently firing gun that needed manual re-cocking after every few rounds fired [which also jammed eventually], extremely low over enemy territory), flying a D.VII wouldn’t have made any difference regarding MvR’s survival. The ground-fired bullet that killed him didn’t give a damn what kind of plane he flew.

#2726062 - 05/16/09 08:22 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: JFM]  
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Modern fighter pilots would refer to that as "The Magic B-B!"
That one random bullet that brings you down. That one that comes out of nowhere.
He allowed himself to become seperated from his squadron, he was flying too low behind enemy line, he wasn't watching his six...he made every rookie mistake possible.
After almost being killed by that FE2B gunner, he should have been very conscience of the fact that he was mortal, no matter how much of a God the German Air Service had made him out to be, for the German public.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
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#2726096 - 05/16/09 10:13 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted By: Pooch
Modern fighter pilots would refer to that as "The Magic B-B!"
That one random bullet that brings you down. That one that comes out of nowhere.


That's what got him 6 July 1917. Until recently, popular belief was he was shot by the same F.E.2d he engaged. I researched this battle for years and based on combat reports, photographic evidence, circumstantial evidence, first hand accounts, eyewitness accounts, airplane performance and wound ballistics, I've concluded MvR was not shot by Woodbridge or Cunnell in F.E.2d A6512. Neither was he shot by friendly fire from behind. Who shot him? It cannot be determined; "the magic BB"!


Originally Posted By: Pooch
He allowed himself to become seperated from his squadron, he was flying too low behind enemy line, he wasn't watching his six...he made every rookie mistake possible.


Enormous simularity between MvR's last combat and his victory over Hawker, only with Hawker MvR was able to kill him before they reached the lines. Yet would MvR have disengaged upon reaching the lines had he not killed Hawker before then? Pure speculation on my part but based on several other simular combats (low altitude, alone, lengthy pursuit) I don't think so. Dogged pursuit was part of MvR's fighting style. Perhaps 21 April was a case of he had gotten away with it before too often?

In any event, I agree, he was WAY too low. During a trip to France I visited the Vaux-sur-Somme church, around which May and MvR maneuvered to avoid colliding with the belfry. Knowing this, had I been there and used proper lead, these planes were low enough that I literally could have hit them with rocks as they flew over. Flying that low is the one thing that correcting likely ("likely" being my speculation) would have prevented MvR from being shot that day (aside from not chasing May in the first place, but that's what fighter pilots did, after all). Flying with a squadron mate and watching his six (and we don't know that he wasn't--Brown roared in from altitude via a full-throttle power dive and could have "come out of nowhere" between checks) would have not prevented all the groundfire coming at him, and although a second German would have divided the groundfire it is reasonable to believe that the lead, all-red German airplane would have attracted the most attention.

#2726131 - 05/16/09 11:10 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: JFM]  
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What I found interesting is that he was able to land the aircraft considering the nature of his wound.

Anyone have any details on that? I've read stories of planes just landing by themselves with a dead pilot on the stick, so it doesn't seem to be all that extraordinary...but I was wondering how bad the shot was. I thought I'd read somewhere that the bullet actually pierced his heart.


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#2726138 - 05/16/09 11:34 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: KidVicious]  
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http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/richt.htm

Quote:
Colonel Sinclair’s report is in the Richthofen file of the Bean papers at the AWM and is as follows:

Copy extract from A.H.File No. 21/13/506
In the Field
22nd April 1918
We have made a surface examination of Captain Baron von Richthofen and find that there are only the entrance and exit wounds of one rifle bullet on the trunk. The entrance wound is on the right side about the level of the ninth-rib, which is fractured, just in front of the posterior axillary line. The bullet appears to have passed obliquely backwards through the chest striking the spinal column , from which it glanced in a forward direction and issued on the left side of the chest, at a level about two inches higher than its entrance on the right and about in the anterior axillary line.

There was also a compound fracture of the lower jaw on the left side, apparently not caused by a missile - and also some minor bruises of the head and face.

The body was not opened - these facts were ascertained by probing from the surface wounds.

(Sgd) Thomas Sinclair
Colonel AMS
Consulting surgeon IV Army
BEF


But the same article offers a differing opinion as well:

Quote:
Captain Graham and Lieutenant Downs submitted a separate report on von Richthofen's death, a copy of this was also in the Bean papers at the AWM:


“Copy extract from AH File No. 21/13/506
We examined the body of Captain Baron von Richthofen on the evening of the 21st instant. We found that he had one entrance and one exit wound caused by the same bullet.

The entrance wound was situated on the right side of the chest in the posterior folf (sic) of the armpit; the exit wound was situated at a slightly higher level near the front of the chest , the point of exit being about half inch below the right (sic) nipple and about three-quarter of an inch external to it. From the nature of the exit wound we think that the bullet passed straight through the chest from right to left, and also slightly forward . Had the bullet been deflected from the spine the exit wound would have been much larger.

The gun firing this bullet must have been situated in the same plane as the long axis of the German machine and fired from the right and slightly behind the right of Captain von Richthofen.

We are agreed that the situation of the entrance and exit wounds are such that they could have not have been caused by fire from the ground.

Sgd G. C. Graham
Capt. RAMC
MO i/c 22nd Wing RAF
Sngd G. E. Downs
Lieut. RAMC.
In the Field
22/4/18

#2726153 - 05/17/09 12:39 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Vanderstok]  
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Originally Posted By: Vanderstok
Thanks MJMORROW! That was indeed the document I had been reading.

About the Fokker DVII, yeah it's final/production layout was completed in early 1918, in between tests during a new fighter competition.


Glad to be of service Vanderstok. Speaking of analysis, did anyone start crunching the performance numbers for the current ROF flyable machines?
-MJ

Last edited by MJMORROW; 05/17/09 12:39 AM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#2726223 - 05/17/09 07:49 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: MJMORROW]  
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That book mentioned up there, is it an accurate book? Makes me wonder...

Three Wings for the Red Baron

Something wrong with Manfred's plane but I can't quite put me finger on it WinkNGrin


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#2726231 - 05/17/09 09:42 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Axel40]  
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Axel, the book discusses all triplanes, including the Sopwith. Three wings for the Red Baron refers to the fact that the Germans wanted a triplane after they saw the Sopwith in action. It is a superb book.


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#2726238 - 05/17/09 10:13 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: KidVicious]  
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Originally Posted By: KidVicious
What I found interesting is that he was able to land the aircraft considering the nature of his wound.

Anyone have any details on that?

KV, if you need more info beyond what Sandman has contributed, JFM will be able to help, as he publish a 19 page article on the incident in the Autumn 2008 issue of Over The Front, titled Eagles vs. Butterflies: Manfred von Richthofen's Wounding, 6 July 1917.

#2726242 - 05/17/09 10:17 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: FlyRetired]  
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Hi Axel you must get that book but it looks pricey Smile2

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2726244 - 05/17/09 10:20 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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Also Axel,

If you follow the link and read the inside flap - it correctly identifies it as a Sopwith. I don't think the author was trying to imply that was MvR's Fokker.


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#2726273 - 05/17/09 11:34 AM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: WWBrian]  
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There is me thinking it was a book about the DR1, that explains things.

Hmmm, 1 available for $99...

So, was the Fokker Triplane great or just made to look great in the hands of The RB, Werner Voss etc.


Can't wait to try it in game and find out WinkNGrin


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#2726291 - 05/17/09 12:29 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Axel40]  
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It was great in the right hands but mostly it was really tiny. This gives it the upper hand at close-quarters, climb rate follows light weight and short wings means a very tight turning circle. I see one - I'm running away, extending. For a while, then I'm coming roaring back for jousting

Fokker Triplane = dancing butterfly with a deadly weapon

Maybe I'll just keep running and pretend I haven't seen it. Do not get anywhere near it anyway that's the main thing Smile2

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2726294 - 05/17/09 01:12 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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I remember Sierra's RB2 tournaments on WON back in the day...

My opponent was in a DR.I doing nothing but a slightly banked circle-turn trying to find me...

...and I just kept high yo-yo'ing and hammer-heading to keep energy and a firing solution on him...

He swore up and down (and at me) that I hacked my SPAD to be able to out-turn his DR1.

Heh, "The DR.I pilot is porked!!!"

p.s. Actually, I think I won my wife a copy of Liesure Suit Larry for that IIRC


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#2726441 - 05/17/09 06:53 PM Re: The Dr.1 is porked!!! [Re: Brigstock]  
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Originally Posted By: Brigstock
RB3D started me on the chase for graphic performance.
I had RB2 on an TNT, when it went to RB3D I had to get hold of one of those new fangled 3DFX cards to add to it.

Newbie... I got the Voodoo 1 for the Flying Corps patch. Which predated RB3d by several months. I think that was my first personally purchased PC upgrade for a game.

I remember being massively excited when my Dad decided to get a PC - I'd had an Atari ST, and been reading up on Red Baron for ages, but it was steadily becoming apparent it wouldn't see the light of day on the ST. Dad's PC meant I could get Red Baron, Falcon 3 and Fields of Glory (the Total War of its day). Mind you, getting Falcon 3 to run was a pain, spent hours trying to get drivers into higher memory...

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