Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#2645578 - 01/03/09 09:59 AM PVI800 vs Map Coordinates  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
MrReynolds Offline
Junior Member
MrReynolds  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
London
I've posted this in the offical BS site, but maybe you guys can help.....my autism is playing me up hell with this one! ar15


I would like to get FAC calls giving coordinates for pilots to manually add as TPs.
Cool.
I am having troubles converting the 6 digit map coordinates into the 5 digit PVI-800 coordinate.
Alphasixone has told me that the seconds in the PVI-800 are actually 1/10 of seconds.
I can dig that.

But how do I convert the seconds digit for the PVI? I thought you would divide the 2 digit map no. by 6... (giving a 1 digit / decimal number)?



Example

So, i've placed 2 vehicles onto the map and added Target Points to my flight plan. Didn't worry about their map coordinates, just jumped into the mission.

Slaved to TP1 - oooh, it's a tank. (45, 05, 6 / 039, 29, 0)
Created a TP3, lased it and it's the same coordinates.

Slaved to TP2 - oooh, its an MLRS!!! (45, 05, 5 / 039, 29 , 1)
Ccreated TP 4 - and again it's the same coordinates.

So TPs from ME work.

Leave mission to see the map coordinates and here they are:
Tank = (45, 05, 46 / 39, 28, 31)
MLRS = (45, 05, 40 / 39, 28, 39)

Is the above proving that everything works fine and that my maths is dodgy as hell or could there be a small problem with co-ordinate linking between map and the simulator real world?
Sorry for double posting, but the problem thread over in the ED forum is being bugged down by poor people who can't even get the game to run exitstageleft
Mr.R.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2645902 - 01/03/09 11:58 PM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: MrReynolds]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 45
McVittees Offline
Junior Member
McVittees  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 45
London, England
The co-ordinates in the map and the 3D world don't match. Don't know the exact details, but it's to do with the way the mission editor has been upgraded and accounts for the curviture of the earth while the 3D world doesn't. Or summit like that anyway...


i5 3570k@4.3Ghz, Z77A-GD55, 8Gb RAM, HD5850, 24" BenQ@1920x1080,Crucial M4 256Gb SSD, 64bit Vista SP2
#2645916 - 01/04/09 12:25 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: McVittees]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Kosmo. Offline
Member
Kosmo.  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Greece
For what it's worth, you can't have tenths of a second and not have seconds, esp in one digit. You could if it was in 3 digits, like XXX.XX.xxx, so that it could go up to 600 tenths of a second (=one minute). Coords are given in degrees (mandatory), then minutes of a degree (deg/60 - optional), then seconds of a degree (deg/3600 - optional), then tenths of a second (optional). Each next optional part obviously gives better accuracy. Full example of the format (imagine the ^ is a little circle as in degrees):

DDD^MM'SS.t" (Degrees, Minutes, Seconds, tenths of a second)

#2645923 - 01/04/09 12:39 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Kosmo.]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK Offline
Member
IvanK  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
Or could it be INS drift ?

Anything you designate and store will be refrence own ship INS position which will almost certainly be differrent (slightly) from true Geographic position.

#2645969 - 01/04/09 02:06 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: IvanK]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
INS drift is not yet modeled.


--
44th VFW
#2646021 - 01/04/09 04:43 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 14
Rhino4 Offline
Junior Member
Rhino4  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 14
McVittees is right. They upgraded the mission editor with curved earth coordinates for the upcoming engine that they are working on, but until the new engine is implemented, the in-game earth will remain flat and will not match the map coordinates. I know I'm just repeating what he already said but he sounded unsure about why, so I'm just saying he's right...."You're right"....

#2646024 - 01/04/09 04:53 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Rhino4]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK Offline
Member
IvanK  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
GrayGhost if INS drift is not yet modeled then there is no need for INS updates... correct ?

#2646093 - 01/04/09 10:08 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: IvanK]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
MrReynolds Offline
Junior Member
MrReynolds  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
London
Thank you ALL. copter
Yep, it's the editor. Hope this is fixed / worked around as I really want to include manual coordintates from FAC into missions.
oh, I also thought it may have been INS drift when I first found it, as it were a long way into a mission.

#2646095 - 01/04/09 10:40 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: MrReynolds]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Justin Case Offline
Junior Member
Justin Case  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Barcelona
I have another question in regard to the INS!

Yesterday I stayed up waay to late (again reading ) with my new girlfriend Black Shark. I decided to perform a navfix a some 1000-ish meters north of the "real" fix point. According to my understanding of INS, this would screw up the rest of my navigation since now i've fooled it. I also had the ABRIS turned off so it couldn't update the coordinates of the PVI, it does so every fourth minute or something...right?

However, when I used the route-mode to fly to a waypoint and later on my second airfield it worked flawless! Took me to the same spot as usual.
Does the INS-fixes even do something yet? If it doesn't I suppose the feature is inbound for DCS in the future.

Just like to add that this doesn't really bother me but as we all know, the more the merrier when it comes to realism!

#2646103 - 01/04/09 11:07 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Rhino4]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 45
McVittees Offline
Junior Member
McVittees  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 45
London, England
Originally Posted By: Rhino4
McVittees is right...I know I'm just repeating what he already said but he sounded unsure about why, so I'm just saying he's right...."You're right"....

Cheers Rhino4! cheers I read so much stuff I sometimes wonder if I'm making it up! dizzy


i5 3570k@4.3Ghz, Z77A-GD55, 8Gb RAM, HD5850, 24" BenQ@1920x1080,Crucial M4 256Gb SSD, 64bit Vista SP2
#2646112 - 01/04/09 11:56 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Justin Case]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK Offline
Member
IvanK  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
Originally Posted By: Justin Case
I have another question in regard to the INS!

Yesterday I stayed up waay to late (again reading ) with my new girlfriend Black Shark. I decided to perform a navfix a some 1000-ish meters north of the "real" fix point. According to my understanding of INS, this would screw up the rest of my navigation since now i've fooled it. I also had the ABRIS turned off so it couldn't update the coordinates of the PVI, it does so every fourth minute or something...right?

However, when I used the route-mode to fly to a waypoint and later on my second airfield it worked flawless! Took me to the same spot as usual.
Does the INS-fixes even do something yet? If it doesn't I suppose the feature is inbound for DCS in the future.

Just like to add that this doesn't really bother me but as we all know, the more the merrier when it comes to realism!


ABRIS updating the PVI .... is there some reference for this ? I thought the only way to update the INS/PVI was by Overfly update or SHKVAL update. As it is if the INS doesn't drift (yet) then there is no need for INS updating..... based on Justins 1000m erroneous update it would seem that INS updating isn't modelled yet (or there is some internal not documented reasonableness test done internally that rejects the update) The mechanisation might be modelled but nothing is being applied to the NAV position.

This brings up another point there is no single Coherent Position in the BS, ABRIS has its GPS referenced position and the PVI has its INS based position.

#2646116 - 01/04/09 12:08 PM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: IvanK]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Justin Case Offline
Junior Member
Justin Case  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Barcelona
Check the manual at page 3-35 (p. 159 in the PDF)
Quote:

MENU/CONTROL/K-041 sub-mode page The K-041 page is used to check the status of the K-041 navigation and targeting system. When in “WORK” MODE, a countdown timer in seconds is displayed next to the TIME OUT field. This indicates the time until the next INS navigation fix from GNSS. Current aircraft coordinates; heading, track angle, and speed are also displayed here.

#2646370 - 01/04/09 08:22 PM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Justin Case]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK Offline
Member
IvanK  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
Well it certainly implies that the GNSS updates the Inertial since it uses the term INS. However I doubt this is the case. I have asaked on the DCS forum for an answer from the Devs.

As far as I can make out ABRAMIS is stand alone using GNSS as its sole postion keeping source. PVI800 is stand alone using Inertial as its sole position keeping source.

One would have thought in a multi sensor sytem that single master position keeping refrence would be used. In the case of BS I would have thought a mixed Inertial/GPS (but weighted to the GPS) position would have been used.

Various threads indicate that Inertial drift is not yet modelled in BS therfore Inertial updating should not be required... even though its mechanised in BS.


Last edited by IvanK; 01/05/09 06:02 AM.
#2646883 - 01/05/09 05:08 PM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: IvanK]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Justin Case Offline
Junior Member
Justin Case  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 89
Barcelona
The reason that ARBIS and PVI800 aren't working together as much as one would like them to do is, from what I have understood, because the ABRIS was installed later. The technology wasn't available to the designers at the time the KA-50 was initially developed for some reason, lack of funding perhaps?

It's like looking into the cockpit of a C-130 in the Swedish airforce (at least the last time I did it), and you see a digital instrument with combined VSI and TCAS among all the other obsolete clocks.

#2647397 - 01/06/09 06:00 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: Justin Case]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK Offline
Member
IvanK  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
Over at DCS Evil_Bivol responds that the ABRAMIS does not update the PVI ever ... see this link:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36283

#2647437 - 01/06/09 08:27 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: IvanK]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 426
EvilBivol-1 Offline
Member
EvilBivol-1  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 426
LA
What's an ABRAMIS? biggrin

Mr.Reynolds, I don't see why you should not be able to model FAC operations. It's done throughout the Deployment campaign and I've myself used your method in one of my missions, where the pilot is given coordinates to input into the INS as Target Points. If the coordinate error in the editor is too significant for your needs you can simply use the coordinates from in-game instead. You can easily obtain in-game coordinates by using the Satellite view (F10) or the Free Cam view (LCTRL+F11). Note, in the Free Cam view, RSHIFT+Num*/RSHIFT+Num/ will provide accelerated forward/back movement while the mouse will pan. The camera coordinates will be displayed in the status bar at the bottom of the screen.

Last edited by EvilBivol-1; 01/06/09 08:39 AM.

EB
Belsimtek/TFC Associate
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com
#2647463 - 01/06/09 09:31 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: EvilBivol-1]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
MrReynolds Offline
Junior Member
MrReynolds  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
London
Yep, EvilBivol-1...that's pretty much what I was going to do in the end. It's just a shame I can't just hover over a unit when creating a mission in order to get its coordinates.

I guess the major problem for me was that I was learning how to input coordinates into the computer, and was getting it wrong (well I wasn't, but didn't realise at the time)!!!
Thanks.

#2647464 - 01/06/09 09:34 AM Re: PVI800 vs Map Coordinates [Re: MrReynolds]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 426
EvilBivol-1 Offline
Member
EvilBivol-1  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 426
LA
Yes, the manual labor is a bit of a PITA, unfortunately. It's quite rewarding though, when everything falls into place with a cool FAC radio call. smile

Last edited by EvilBivol-1; 01/06/09 09:35 AM.

EB
Belsimtek/TFC Associate
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com

Moderated by  Force10, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0