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#2634879 - 12/16/08 05:11 AM Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-...  
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First installment will feature the SA-6, it's my favorite Surface to Air Threat to go up against. Enjoy!!

SA-6.wmv <---Right-click, save as.
SA-6.avi <--- Right-click, save as (smaller file, recommended for low bandwidth users or low end PC users).


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#2635126 - 12/16/08 03:49 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Very nice P!!! thumbsup

Here's my version of it. It's from last year:

--------------------------------------------------------
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 12/23/2007 13:47:12.
Game is Tactical Engagement type LocalMission name: !SA6

Mission Type: SEAD Strike
Flight Callsign: Cowboy1
1 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52 CCIP
Country: U.S.

FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Falconeer joined as Cowboy11 at 08:59:04
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:00:00
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:00:10
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:01:31
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:01:53
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:04:10
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:04:20
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:05:51
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:06:05
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:06:23
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:07:15
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:07:21
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:08:51
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:08:59
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:10:12
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:10:18
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:11:32
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:11:44
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:13:16
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:13:31
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:14:56
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:15:22
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:15:28
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:16:09
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:16:19
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:17:32
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:17:38
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:17:58
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:18:15
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:18:21
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:19:33
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:19:39
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:21:11
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:21:17
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:22:42
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:22:50
Event SA6 launched at Falconeer 09:23:48
Event DPRK StraightFlush destroyed by Falconeer at 09:24:22
Event Falconeer exited from Cowboy11 at 09:26:46

-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:

Human Player: Col Falconeer
Callsign: Falconeer
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 36
Other Player Kills 0

screwy tactical


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#2635772 - 12/17/08 11:56 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Falconeer]  
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great job!

#2910216 - 11/30/09 02:47 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: superpilot81]  
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This link is dead, do you have a new link? I'd like to check this video out as the SA-6 is my problem area right now.

Thanks!


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#2910247 - 11/30/09 04:20 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: tarball]  
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Fixed!


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#2910336 - 11/30/09 08:37 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Thanks! Great video! Didnt know abot flashing the jammer and when, I just push J once if I remember it.

Need more, particular A-G tutorial videos ala mavericks, HARM and etc. biggrin

#2910412 - 11/30/09 12:37 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: PrivateNoob]  
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This is a question, not a critism. I don't understand why you kept doing barrel rolls on the final approach of the missile. At one point you stop pulling to change the aspect on the missile to do one and it almost gets you. I don't understand how that would help avoidance.

Last edited by Thommo; 11/30/09 12:37 PM.
#2915095 - 12/07/09 06:31 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Thommo]  

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Good job panther. I've had a lot of problems with the Gainful myself (that is the NATO codename right) The in all honesty though Right after that I find that the SA-2 is a pain to deal with to. In the SEAD training mission in the korean theater I found myself either getting splashed by the SA-6 or the Guideline.

How does one go online in this game, is it easy to do?

#2915153 - 12/07/09 09:48 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Thommo]  
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Originally Posted By: Thommo
This is a question, not a critism. I don't understand why you kept doing barrel rolls on the final approach of the missile. At one point you stop pulling to change the aspect on the missile to do one and it almost gets you. I don't understand how that would help avoidance.


Oh, well,

...any our changes to the aspect, even smallest one will make the missile turn...

Why missile turns?

1. To get your ass/nose into interception or pure pursuit path.

And how does missile turn?....

1. It rotates, using canards, ailerons, and as a matter of fact, such doing rolls makes missile more dragging. (Air resistance onto some surface, which can, doesn't have to be aero-dynamical, in this case they are,.. BUT!, ailerons on 45-90 degrees are NOT aero-dynamical and produce more drag)

And we want to keep in mind that missile is affected by g-force as everything in the air/ground, but can sustain much more, about 10 times as fighter.

It actually depends on what type of missile.

And we want to know that missile is about 2,3 times and more, faster then fighter, so for turning in really "tight" turns it needs to be very maneuverable, and they mostly are.

Why we want missile to turn?

1. To trick it for to loose our track
2. To bleed energy (with help of drag/air-resistance)

How to make missile to bleed energy?

Missile will bleed speed/energy if it turns, especially if it's motor doesn't run.

Missile's motor runs until:
a) runs out of fuel (missiles are much smaller than planes, well most are :), and have smaller "fuel tanks" on-board, and they don't carry under-pylon additional fuel-tanks)
b) it destroys itself and/or target (well if self-destroys, it's out of fuel "long" before)

-so, to conclude.

We want to turn/roll/change aspect to incoming missile to make same missile turn too (because it tries to intercept us and looses its energy (speed)), so it cannot keep with us making such evasive attitude changes (turns)... because of its high speed and tracking logic.

That generally leads to knowing your threat.., a MUST, because NOT all threats are SA-6's.
There are some like SA-10 (S-300/400). You'll meet with them at the time wink

Finally, so these are not some mumbo-jumbo *rolls*, and they require lot's of SA (situation-awareness) and practice and NOT panic!.

Hope this helps a bit,
Cheers

#2915222 - 12/07/09 02:09 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: white_fang]  
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Originally Posted By: white_fang
Originally Posted By: Thommo
This is a question, not a critism. I don't understand why you kept doing barrel rolls on the final approach of the missile. At one point you stop pulling to change the aspect on the missile to do one and it almost gets you. I don't understand how that would help avoidance.


Oh, well,

...any our changes to the aspect, even smallest one will make the missile turn...

Why missile turns?

1. To get your ass/nose into interception or pure pursuit path.

And how does missile turn?....

1. It rotates, using canards, ailerons, and as a matter of fact, such doing rolls makes missile more dragging. (Air resistance onto some surface, which can, doesn't have to be aero-dynamical, in this case they are,.. BUT!, ailerons on 45-90 degrees are NOT aero-dynamical and produce more drag)

And we want to keep in mind that missile is affected by g-force as everything in the air/ground, but can sustain much more, about 10 times as fighter.

It actually depends on what type of missile.

And we want to know that missile is about 2,3 times and more, faster then fighter, so for turning in really "tight" turns it needs to be very maneuverable, and they mostly are.

Why we want missile to turn?

1. To trick it for to loose our track
2. To bleed energy (with help of drag/air-resistance)

How to make missile to bleed energy?

Missile will bleed speed/energy if it turns, especially if it's motor doesn't run.

Missile's motor runs until:
a) runs out of fuel (missiles are much smaller than planes, well most are :), and have smaller "fuel tanks" on-board, and they don't carry under-pylon additional fuel-tanks)
b) it destroys itself and/or target (well if self-destroys, it's out of fuel "long" before)


To add in the beginning of missiles flight path ,at least with some radar based missiles (whether they A/A or S/A (sam) ) will take lead pursuit path to "cut" off and shorten ToT . When its in this phase changing direction will bleed its speed more because of constant changes in its intercept path .

#2915427 - 12/07/09 07:20 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Ed_1]  
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Thanks for the tutorial Panther!


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#2916497 - 12/09/09 10:16 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Unix]  
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Er, Steph.

What are best timings for flashing the jammer. (Int / pause / duration)

Some timings is msec.

I've programmed HOTAS for 800ms on, 800ms off, for 5 times, or it should be smaller?

#2917040 - 12/10/09 01:40 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: white_fang]  
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Ah, I just manually do it. That way I don't know have to worry about "is it on or off?" after running it from a macro.


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#2920004 - 12/14/09 09:08 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Aha,

I see, thanks anyway.

In my case ecm is on HAT4, so it is not real easy to constantly push it fast.
(well, otoh, keyboard is ok)

one dirty little h4ck smile (well, hint)

.. about "worrying" is it on or off, you can add some key-combo for jammer off separate,
(it is near the end of cockpit key list, unassigned by default)

eg. jammer toggle (on/off) = j , jammer off = CTL + j, so at the and of the jammer autorun (flash) syntax, jammer off would be always executed at the end

eg.2. (didn't program this but it should work)

SimECMOn = j
SimECMOff = {CTL SHF j}


BTN H4U /I KD(X17) DLY(100) KU(X17)
/O RPT(7) (SimECMOn DLY(323) SimECMOff DLY(153)) SimECMOff

... and here you have fast "link" to 3 ews programs

BTN H4D /I KD(X18) DLY(100) KU(X18)
/O SimEWSProgTwo SimDropFlare Rem RPT(2) (SimECMOn DLY(3412) SimECMOff DLY(853))
BTN H4L /I KD(X19) DLY(100) KU(X19)
/O SimEWSProgThree SimDropFlare Rem RPT(2) (SimECMOn DLY(3412) SimECMOff DLY(853))
BTN H4R /I KD(X20) DLY(100) KU(X20)
/O SimEWSProgOne SimDropFlare Rem RPT(2) (SimECMOn DLY(3412) SimECMOff DLY(853))


.. easy, but not tested, will do.. later smile

bye

#2921387 - 12/16/09 10:19 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: white_fang]  
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Nice tutorial! Thx smile

#2925734 - 12/23/09 09:30 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Ed_1]  
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Very Well done!! You sound like a young guy and it is great to hear a kid who is taking the time to build proficiency at flight sims. So many of the generation behind us seems to go for the FPS games. New blood in the FS arena can only help the genre. Well done!!

#2925849 - 12/24/09 12:29 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Subsonic]  
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pitchafit Young well 27 sure isn't old but a guy.... REALLY??


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#2925877 - 12/24/09 01:29 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Originally Posted By: *Panther*
pitchafit Young well 27 sure isn't old but a guy.... REALLY??


He meant to say that you sounded adorable hahaha


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#2926594 - 12/25/09 12:32 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Unix]  
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hehe,

Be warned, you don't wanna mess with that .. >sex-chick< wink

#3162024 - 12/21/10 01:06 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: PrivateNoob]  
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Sorry, but where's the video clip?


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#3162473 - 12/21/10 08:52 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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In the first post.


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#3162660 - 12/22/10 12:39 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Originally Posted By: *Panther*
In the first post.


Sorry Panther. rolleyes I was looking for something like this here with the underline.


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#3162706 - 12/22/10 01:39 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Hi Panther. Great video clip. You're some flyer! I'm returning to F4AF after many years (been hanging out at TAW2.0) so I'm going through a crash course again. I have some general questions for you if you don't mind:

You use Track IR?

The video is operating from within the 3D 'pit?
(I'm assuming that because, like me, your TrackIR won't work in the 2D 'pit)

You are big on the visual (something about "loose sight, loose the fight"), but you must initial know where to look. How?
(Remember haven't got beyond TM10 so it might become clearer later)

Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

My approach elsewhere has been just to go defensive and "beam" it. I don't think that's what you're doing?

Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Thanks.


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#3162753 - 12/22/10 03:01 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Wombat1940]  
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Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
You use Track IR?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

The video is operating from within the 3D 'pit?
(I'm assuming that because, like me, your TrackIR won't work in the 2D 'pit)

Yes

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

You are big on the visual (something about "loose sight, loose the fight"), but you must initial know where to look. How?
(Remember haven't got beyond TM10 so it might become clearer later)

I'm using my recon of the area, RWR, and visual. Given that this video was done using a TE, I already knew where it would be.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

Good thing every SAM missile has a smoke trail. wink

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

My approach elsewhere has been just to go defensive and "beam" it. I don't think that's what you're doing?

I never had any luck beaming a SAM. I would much rather fly against it. Make it turn to change it's flight path, which will cause it to slow down.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Always 100% realism in Falcon 4.


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#3162938 - 12/22/10 09:57 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

Panther: Good thing every SAM missile has a smoke trail. wink
Wombat: There's an opportunity here for some bright Engineer or at least programmer [Missile Trail On/Off] hahaha

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Panther: Always 100% realism in Falcon 4.
Wombat: Thank you. Keep it up Ma'am. [Funny. had trouble spelling "Ma'am". Its a reflection on our culture that we don't have to use it often enough]


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#3262439 - 04/07/11 05:47 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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For those who may not have seen it or downloaded it from the first post. Here's the same video uploaded to youtube.



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#3310730 - 06/04/11 08:21 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Cheers.

Anything similar for A-A missiles?

Also, your voice changes during +G turns... is this psychological, or do you have a really high stick force required?

#3310767 - 06/04/11 12:09 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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When you say beam the missile...what does that mean exactly...?


- I know those voices in my head are not real, but man they have some good ideas.

- I never killed anyone, but I have read a large number of obituaries with great satisfaction.

- If I cannot make it to your funeral, I will certainly send a message indicating my approval.

- Most of my Friends are Imaginary

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#3310867 - 06/04/11 04:41 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: jack72]  
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Originally Posted By: jack72
When you say beam the missile...what does that mean exactly...?


Maneuver your plane, so that the missile is on your 3 or 9 o'clock position.

#3311015 - 06/04/11 10:17 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Cheers.

Anything similar for A-A missiles?

Not at this time. BVR engagement and missile defense is rather easy with the Doppler notch. WVR heater defense is not so much. You really need to be looking for the heater shot and use a lot flares.

Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Also, your voice changes during +G turns... is this psychological, or do you have a really high stick force required?

When the video was done, I was using a FSSB R2 modded Cougar.


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#3700005 - 12/16/12 01:50 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Great video. Thanks!

#3704521 - 12/22/12 03:46 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Great video, I will study in detail.

Quote:
You really need to be looking for the heater shot and use a lot flares.


And with some IFR like Python or the AIM-9x it may not work in any case especially if you are too close to the tally.

#3706367 - 12/25/12 08:42 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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It is a pity it is not possible to register in your blog forum panther...

Anyway, great information. I think one of the best I have ever seen about this area. I probably fixed some issues I had with S.A.M. and I was not able to understand or to get information on what to do around the net.

In any case I still think that some of your technique would be quite complicate to apply with a SA-10 , Patriot or even an Hawk.

The first two don't trigger the RWR alarm so if you don't have the S.A.M. visually identified it is impossible to start the defensive maneouvre on time. The second sometimes hit me even if the first HAWK was defeat and the RWR was silent but suddenly a second one hit me on the back.

Then about the barrel roll, I don't truly understand what kind of movement you are doing. It looks to me a kind of aileron roll and not a barell but every time I try to defeat the S.A.M. frontally I get a hit.

Fianl question, if the S.A.M. has a long rocket burn time and get a huge propulsion force it is necessary to apply what kind of movement between those you have shown ? In that case the S.A.M. got a great energy and it is difficult to dissipate all that energy.

#3706922 - 12/26/12 11:49 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Gigolety]  
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Originally Posted By: Gigolety
It is a pity it is not possible to register in your blog forum panther...

Anyway, great information. I think one of the best I have ever seen about this area. I probably fixed some issues I had with S.A.M. and I was not able to understand or to get information on what to do around the net.

Site is read-only now. There was way too many spam bots registering daily that it became hard to decipher who was real and who wasn't.

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
In any case I still think that some of your technique would be quite complicate to apply with a SA-10 , Patriot or even an Hawk.

The first two don't trigger the RWR alarm so if you don't have the S.A.M. visually identified it is impossible to start the defensive maneouvre on time. The second sometimes hit me even if the first HAWK was defeat and the RWR was silent but suddenly a second one hit me on the back.

For SA-10, this will definitely not work. The only defensive tool to avoid a launched SA-10 is to get low and break the lock from the radar (that's if you know one is inbound).

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
Then about the barrel roll, I don't truly understand what kind of movement you are doing. It looks to me a kind of aileron roll and not a barell but every time I try to defeat the S.A.M. frontally I get a hit.

I'm rolling around the missile while having back pressure on the stick, which produces a slight barrel roll. Aileron rolls is just pure left/right stick deflection, which wasn't what I was doing.

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
Fianl question, if the S.A.M. has a long rocket burn time and get a huge propulsion force it is necessary to apply what kind of movement between those you have shown ? In that case the S.A.M. got a great energy and it is difficult to dissipate all that energy.

Any change of direction by the aircraft will force the missile to change direction which aides in slowing the missile down. The missiles are tracking in a lead-pursuit fashion, so try to move the aircraft to break that lead.

This video and all of my other videos were done after months of SAM evasion training with a formal VFW I flew with. There was a lot of research that went into evasion tactics, so it takes a lot of practice to figure it all out. My number one suggestion is to create a TE with one SAM threat with ACE settings. Then you change your vulnerability to off and just fly the jet trying to evade the missiles. If you take a hit, you can still fly the jet in the area, no need to re-launch the mission. That's how I learned my evasion techniques, I took a lot of hits but I kept on fighting it. This isn't something that you can learn from one video and take to the battlefield, it needs practice and you need to develop your own technique.

PS: I hate hearing my own voice in any video, but especially this one. frown


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#3837848 - 09/16/13 09:49 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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I agree with you about many points but in any case it is still a great video that let great techniques to be used with old SAMs.

With Patriots would not work too.

This video and all of my other videos were done after months of SAM evasion training with a formal VFW I flew with. There was a lot of research that went into evasion tactics, so it takes a lot of practice to figure it all out. My number one suggestion is to create a TE with one SAM threat with ACE settings. Then you change your vulnerability to off and just fly the jet trying to evade the missiles. If you take a hit, you can still fly the jet in the area, no need to re-launch the mission. That's how I learned my evasion techniques, I took a lot of hits but I kept on fighting it. This isn't something that you can learn from one video and take to the battlefield, it needs practice and you need to develop your own technique.

PS: I hate hearing my own voice in any video, but especially this one


I agree with you, I used this system to practice dogfights and strikes when training because if they hit you don't learn enough. After that if you want to simulate killed in action and go back is fine otherwise it is a great way to repeat and try to correet the mistakes.

I don't like hear my voice in videos too but I don't think your is bad at all. band

Keep creating this good guides buddy.

Cheers

Last edited by Gigolety; 09/16/13 09:53 PM.
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