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#3162473 - 12/21/10 08:52 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Panther Offline
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In the first post.


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#3162660 - 12/22/10 12:39 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Wombat1940 Offline
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Originally Posted By: *Panther*
In the first post.


Sorry Panther. rolleyes I was looking for something like this here with the underline.


Gigabyte Ultra Durable 3 GA-EX58-UD4P motherboard, Intel i7 920 2.66Ghz/8Gb RAM chip set (only 3.5Gb available with XP & 32bit system), NVIDIA GeForce GTX275 video card, Realtek ALC850 sound circuitry, OS XP Home SP3, Samsung 21"(4x3)Flat LCD, TM Cougar joystick, TrackIR 3Pro, Logitech G330 Headset, ConnectAccess621 ADSL2/2 Router.
XP Home SP3, Running Falcon 4AF, 1.013 Patch, High Tiles (winter).
#3162706 - 12/22/10 01:39 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Hi Panther. Great video clip. You're some flyer! I'm returning to F4AF after many years (been hanging out at TAW2.0) so I'm going through a crash course again. I have some general questions for you if you don't mind:

You use Track IR?

The video is operating from within the 3D 'pit?
(I'm assuming that because, like me, your TrackIR won't work in the 2D 'pit)

You are big on the visual (something about "loose sight, loose the fight"), but you must initial know where to look. How?
(Remember haven't got beyond TM10 so it might become clearer later)

Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

My approach elsewhere has been just to go defensive and "beam" it. I don't think that's what you're doing?

Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Thanks.


Gigabyte Ultra Durable 3 GA-EX58-UD4P motherboard, Intel i7 920 2.66Ghz/8Gb RAM chip set (only 3.5Gb available with XP & 32bit system), NVIDIA GeForce GTX275 video card, Realtek ALC850 sound circuitry, OS XP Home SP3, Samsung 21"(4x3)Flat LCD, TM Cougar joystick, TrackIR 3Pro, Logitech G330 Headset, ConnectAccess621 ADSL2/2 Router.
XP Home SP3, Running Falcon 4AF, 1.013 Patch, High Tiles (winter).
#3162753 - 12/22/10 03:01 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Wombat1940]  
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Panther Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
You use Track IR?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

The video is operating from within the 3D 'pit?
(I'm assuming that because, like me, your TrackIR won't work in the 2D 'pit)

Yes

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

You are big on the visual (something about "loose sight, loose the fight"), but you must initial know where to look. How?
(Remember haven't got beyond TM10 so it might become clearer later)

I'm using my recon of the area, RWR, and visual. Given that this video was done using a TE, I already knew where it would be.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

Good thing every SAM missile has a smoke trail. wink

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

My approach elsewhere has been just to go defensive and "beam" it. I don't think that's what you're doing?

I never had any luck beaming a SAM. I would much rather fly against it. Make it turn to change it's flight path, which will cause it to slow down.

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940

Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Always 100% realism in Falcon 4.


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ASUS ROG MAXIMUS VIII HERO, i7 6700k, G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 32GB, 980TI 6GB G1 OC, Obutto oZone, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, CH Pro Pedals, NP TrackIR5, ***Soon*** Oculus Rift
#3162938 - 12/22/10 09:57 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Wombat1940 Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
Because of the missile smoke trial, its easy (sorry, easier) to see the missile. What if had a non-visible trail?
(In fact if I was design missiles I'd look to manufacture hard to see missiles, or produce multiple trails to confuse the pilot)

Panther: Good thing every SAM missile has a smoke trail. wink
Wombat: There's an opportunity here for some bright Engineer or at least programmer [Missile Trail On/Off] hahaha

Originally Posted By: Wombat1940
Don't take offense, but I assume you are flying in "Ace Mode"?
(I don't even see any labels. wink )

Panther: Always 100% realism in Falcon 4.
Wombat: Thank you. Keep it up Ma'am. [Funny. had trouble spelling "Ma'am". Its a reflection on our culture that we don't have to use it often enough]


Gigabyte Ultra Durable 3 GA-EX58-UD4P motherboard, Intel i7 920 2.66Ghz/8Gb RAM chip set (only 3.5Gb available with XP & 32bit system), NVIDIA GeForce GTX275 video card, Realtek ALC850 sound circuitry, OS XP Home SP3, Samsung 21"(4x3)Flat LCD, TM Cougar joystick, TrackIR 3Pro, Logitech G330 Headset, ConnectAccess621 ADSL2/2 Router.
XP Home SP3, Running Falcon 4AF, 1.013 Patch, High Tiles (winter).
#3262439 - 04/07/11 05:47 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Panther Offline
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For those who may not have seen it or downloaded it from the first post. Here's the same video uploaded to youtube.



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#3310730 - 06/04/11 08:21 AM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Gone
Cheers.

Anything similar for A-A missiles?

Also, your voice changes during +G turns... is this psychological, or do you have a really high stick force required?

#3310767 - 06/04/11 12:09 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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jack72 Offline
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When you say beam the missile...what does that mean exactly...?


- I know those voices in my head are not real, but man they have some good ideas.

- I never killed anyone, but I have read a large number of obituaries with great satisfaction.

- If I cannot make it to your funeral, I will certainly send a message indicating my approval.

- Most of my Friends are Imaginary

- Time is money, so I decided to sell my watch.
#3310867 - 06/04/11 04:41 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: jack72]  
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Staggolee Offline
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Originally Posted By: jack72
When you say beam the missile...what does that mean exactly...?


Maneuver your plane, so that the missile is on your 3 or 9 o'clock position.

#3311015 - 06/04/11 10:17 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Panther Offline
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Cheers.

Anything similar for A-A missiles?

Not at this time. BVR engagement and missile defense is rather easy with the Doppler notch. WVR heater defense is not so much. You really need to be looking for the heater shot and use a lot flares.

Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Also, your voice changes during +G turns... is this psychological, or do you have a really high stick force required?

When the video was done, I was using a FSSB R2 modded Cougar.


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#3700005 - 12/16/12 01:50 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Great video. Thanks!

#3704521 - 12/22/12 03:46 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Gigolety Offline
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Great video, I will study in detail.

Quote:
You really need to be looking for the heater shot and use a lot flares.


And with some IFR like Python or the AIM-9x it may not work in any case especially if you are too close to the tally.

#3706367 - 12/25/12 08:42 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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Gigolety Offline
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It is a pity it is not possible to register in your blog forum panther...

Anyway, great information. I think one of the best I have ever seen about this area. I probably fixed some issues I had with S.A.M. and I was not able to understand or to get information on what to do around the net.

In any case I still think that some of your technique would be quite complicate to apply with a SA-10 , Patriot or even an Hawk.

The first two don't trigger the RWR alarm so if you don't have the S.A.M. visually identified it is impossible to start the defensive maneouvre on time. The second sometimes hit me even if the first HAWK was defeat and the RWR was silent but suddenly a second one hit me on the back.

Then about the barrel roll, I don't truly understand what kind of movement you are doing. It looks to me a kind of aileron roll and not a barell but every time I try to defeat the S.A.M. frontally I get a hit.

Fianl question, if the S.A.M. has a long rocket burn time and get a huge propulsion force it is necessary to apply what kind of movement between those you have shown ? In that case the S.A.M. got a great energy and it is difficult to dissipate all that energy.

#3706922 - 12/26/12 11:49 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Gigolety]  
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Originally Posted By: Gigolety
It is a pity it is not possible to register in your blog forum panther...

Anyway, great information. I think one of the best I have ever seen about this area. I probably fixed some issues I had with S.A.M. and I was not able to understand or to get information on what to do around the net.

Site is read-only now. There was way too many spam bots registering daily that it became hard to decipher who was real and who wasn't.

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
In any case I still think that some of your technique would be quite complicate to apply with a SA-10 , Patriot or even an Hawk.

The first two don't trigger the RWR alarm so if you don't have the S.A.M. visually identified it is impossible to start the defensive maneouvre on time. The second sometimes hit me even if the first HAWK was defeat and the RWR was silent but suddenly a second one hit me on the back.

For SA-10, this will definitely not work. The only defensive tool to avoid a launched SA-10 is to get low and break the lock from the radar (that's if you know one is inbound).

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
Then about the barrel roll, I don't truly understand what kind of movement you are doing. It looks to me a kind of aileron roll and not a barell but every time I try to defeat the S.A.M. frontally I get a hit.

I'm rolling around the missile while having back pressure on the stick, which produces a slight barrel roll. Aileron rolls is just pure left/right stick deflection, which wasn't what I was doing.

Originally Posted By: Gigolety
Fianl question, if the S.A.M. has a long rocket burn time and get a huge propulsion force it is necessary to apply what kind of movement between those you have shown ? In that case the S.A.M. got a great energy and it is difficult to dissipate all that energy.

Any change of direction by the aircraft will force the missile to change direction which aides in slowing the missile down. The missiles are tracking in a lead-pursuit fashion, so try to move the aircraft to break that lead.

This video and all of my other videos were done after months of SAM evasion training with a formal VFW I flew with. There was a lot of research that went into evasion tactics, so it takes a lot of practice to figure it all out. My number one suggestion is to create a TE with one SAM threat with ACE settings. Then you change your vulnerability to off and just fly the jet trying to evade the missiles. If you take a hit, you can still fly the jet in the area, no need to re-launch the mission. That's how I learned my evasion techniques, I took a lot of hits but I kept on fighting it. This isn't something that you can learn from one video and take to the battlefield, it needs practice and you need to develop your own technique.

PS: I hate hearing my own voice in any video, but especially this one. frown


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#3837848 - 09/16/13 09:49 PM Re: Introducing my "How to Defeat a SA-... [Re: Panther]  
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I agree with you about many points but in any case it is still a great video that let great techniques to be used with old SAMs.

With Patriots would not work too.

This video and all of my other videos were done after months of SAM evasion training with a formal VFW I flew with. There was a lot of research that went into evasion tactics, so it takes a lot of practice to figure it all out. My number one suggestion is to create a TE with one SAM threat with ACE settings. Then you change your vulnerability to off and just fly the jet trying to evade the missiles. If you take a hit, you can still fly the jet in the area, no need to re-launch the mission. That's how I learned my evasion techniques, I took a lot of hits but I kept on fighting it. This isn't something that you can learn from one video and take to the battlefield, it needs practice and you need to develop your own technique.

PS: I hate hearing my own voice in any video, but especially this one


I agree with you, I used this system to practice dogfights and strikes when training because if they hit you don't learn enough. After that if you want to simulate killed in action and go back is fine otherwise it is a great way to repeat and try to correet the mistakes.

I don't like hear my voice in videos too but I don't think your is bad at all. band

Keep creating this good guides buddy.

Cheers

Last edited by Gigolety; 09/16/13 09:53 PM.
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