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#2622145 - 11/24/08 07:03 AM Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots.  
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Gambit21 Offline
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I've mentioned before on this board that I'm writing a historical novel on the 352nd, with some help from a few of the living pilots from that squadron.

The narrative is also going to touch on a German pilot here and there, and some of you helped with nailing down a squadron some time ago.

Now I need some insight into pilots that were not necessarily Nazis. I've decided to that the German pilot I'm writing about is not necessarily a Nazi, but at the same time I don't want to seem like an apologist. Have any of you read a book about any particular pilot where he remarks on his feelings towards government policy? Or maybe he lends some insight into serving for his country while not agreeing with Nazi principles?

I would be grateful for any guidance towards reading materials

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#2622154 - 11/24/08 07:37 AM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Gambit21]  
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Can't say I can give you much in the way of records, but I can offer a suggestion. Now this is based on my assumption that you're writing a historical fiction and this isn't a first-hand account kind of thing.

Why not make the German focused, as I think most soldiers are, on the job at hand and the family at home? German cities were virtually flattened during the RAF nightbombing and many German poets and authors have written about this. It was a huge trauma to Germans and something that was a daily reminder in the years afterwords. Fighting a war overseas is one thing, fighting in your own backyard is another.

By focusing on the family life with the stresses and emotional tension there, you can skirt the nazi/apologist issue entirely. Plus the family stuff is great for character building.

Hope it works out regardless! Always loved aviation books. smile


Ever forward!
#2622182 - 11/24/08 09:50 AM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: LightHead]  
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What LH said, your German guy would know all about Empires, his English/Roman/Viking counterpart would know all about Empire and slavery. But they might be uncomfortable about it if they heard directly about the murder and destruction going on under the heel of the head of Empire or even under elected dictators

He'd have a friend who'd put him straight in the standard Platonic dialog Smile2

Or he could see one sight one day that would change his life and make him wary of the crowds cheering for Victory for the Empire. He's a bit disillusioned in the standard disillusioned-hero role </Barry Norman> Smile2

Some unexplored angle, some reason to fight against the forces of Light with honour. Not really difficult is it, to fight and die for what you believe in. People shouldn't invade other people's defensible spaces, it makes a hero out of a ruthless killer. Even the psychotic ruthless killer. No wait especially the ruthless killer Smile2

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#2622259 - 11/24/08 02:16 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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Bard Offline
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Read Galland's book - the first and the last.

I know from my grandfather who flew in the luftwaffe before and during WW2 that the Nazis were widely seen as idiots by aircrew. Goering had their respect at first due to his WW1 performance but lost it during the Battle of Britain.

They fought for country and their sense of duty - not for politics - very much the reasons Soldiers fight today.


What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:

"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson

"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman

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#2622298 - 11/24/08 03:29 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Bard]  
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I B Spectre Offline
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Also, Gunther Rall's book "My Log Book" talks about his being hounded by the Gestapo even as Hitler was showering him with awards. I think, as is often the case, the rank and file soldier (not SS or the like) serve their country, not political ideology. Rommel, as a professional soldier, did not mesh well with the politicos.

#2622333 - 11/24/08 04:12 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: I B Spectre]  
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Not wanting to be argumentative or disruptive here but I'm very wary of the 'They were only defending their country and family' line. This applies to most armies of most periods but especially to Nazi Germany. You must remember that most of the pilots we're talking about were of an age where they were raised on Nazi propaganda - in school, movies and especially youth organisations. Racist doctrines and Arian propaganda were part and parcel of German life after Hitler came to power. We are ALL indoctrinated to an extent by the culture we're raised in. But this was far more extreme.
I've just re-read 'Bomber' by Len Deighton and I think he does a fine job of presenting all kinds of Germans - political, apolitical and anti-Nazi. He does the same for the other side too, our hero Lancaster pilot being an outspoken socialist who is disgusted at his work bombing German cities. Deighton has his (somewhat cynical) take on things and it's not the 'truth'. It was a way of looking at things in a fresh way though and is still an excellent and at times shocking book.


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#2622360 - 11/24/08 04:41 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Compans]  
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OK, processing...thanks for the input and suggestions so far peeps.

Yes this is historical fiction...I couldn't be creating this were it not for the help of the living pilots. The German perspective is a bit more challenging, but will be a much smaller part of the narrative.

#2622447 - 11/24/08 07:07 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Gambit21]  
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Just my two cents, use your common-sense:

1) What average age were the front-line pilots?
- 19-24 years

2) When does a human being starts being a political person ?
- usually AFTER gaining some life experience (21-29 years), not during gaining this experience

3) What is the view pilots in general have of themselves ?
- I am the greatest !

4) What interests has a young, male person in a time of danger ?
- Live a life of glory, women, alcohol, member of an "elite" band of "brothers", enjoy a possibly very short life !

5) What is the view a young person has of his goverment?
- I don't care ! I want to live a life of adventure ! Right or wrong, my country !

And this applies to all pilots of all countries. So why should this be different for a german pilot ?


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#2622456 - 11/24/08 07:16 PM The book you want is ... [Re: Hogey]  
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'The Last Battle' by Peter Henn published by William Kember in the UK in 1954.
Peter Henn started flying 109's and then 190's for the Luftwaffe after the 'good times' and was very definitely not a Nazi. Finished the war minus two legs and captured by the Russians.

RedToo.


My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Elie Wiesel. Romanian born Jewish writer, professor, political activist, Nobel Laureate, Holocaust survivor. 1928 - 2016.

Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#2622510 - 11/24/08 08:55 PM Re: The book you want is ... [Re: RedToo]  
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I've read books of Meimberg, Steinhoff, Rall, Knoke, Hannig, Hartmann, Rudel, Spoden, Johnen, Duttmann, Buchner and Stahl.

I can't remember who wrote what but these blokes (except Rudel) were obviously quite discrete in their political views, naive maybe and surprisingly insulted over the fact that the war got so heavy on Germany (after all they started, right?).

Some of them appeared to think that WWII was a great show organized for young pilots to live it up in the skies, but that comes up in biographies on some allied pilots too...

#2622511 - 11/24/08 08:57 PM Re: Need help/insight on non-Nazi German pilots. [Re: Hogey]  
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Gambit21 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hogey
Just my two cents, use your common-sense:

1) What average age were the front-line pilots?
- 19-24 years

2) When does a human being starts being a political person ?
- usually AFTER gaining some life experience (21-29 years), not during gaining this experience

3) What is the view pilots in general have of themselves ?
- I am the greatest !

4) What interests has a young, male person in a time of danger ?
- Live a life of glory, women, alcohol, member of an "elite" band of "brothers", enjoy a possibly very short life !

5) What is the view a young person has of his goverment?
- I don't care ! I want to live a life of adventure ! Right or wrong, my country !

And this applies to all pilots of all countries. So why should this be different for a german pilot ?




If course, you know this, I know this, but not every reader will automatically have this bank of information, and I don't want to seem like I'm overlooking the subject of Nazism. As well as entertaining, the purpose of this book is also to educate. So I'd like just an idea of what an actual German, pilot or otherwise might say about the subject during that time period if he didn't agree with the doctrine.
The reader will only be seeing a glimpse of this pilot here and there, but I'd like to briefly touch on the subject to give the reader a frame of reference.

Compans, while I hear what you're saying, I don't think every German child was subject to such teachings. Also, I've known for instance two Mormons who grew up in such households, but eschewed those teachings by the time they were young adults despite the fact that they were inundated with these teachings from a very young age. Not comparing Mormon's to Nazis of course, just pointing out that some individuals become free thinkers despite all efforts to see they do not.
I'm sure a pilot here and there called BS on Nazi doctrine despite growing up in a home where such ideology was embraced.

#2622515 - 11/24/08 09:09 PM A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: Gambit21]  
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My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Elie Wiesel. Romanian born Jewish writer, professor, political activist, Nobel Laureate, Holocaust survivor. 1928 - 2016.

Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#2622518 - 11/24/08 09:12 PM Re: A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: RedToo]  
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Thanks!

#2622749 - 11/25/08 07:47 AM Re: A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: Gambit21]  
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There's no homogenous picture of the Luftwaffe pilots and even those who despised the Nazis for their primitiveness, aggression and brutality had different reasons for doing so.

Meimberg for example was a catholic and had grown up in catholic youth organizations remotely comparable to the Boy Scouts. He only left them to learn flying - which at that time was only possible as a member of Hitler Youth - but never lost his critical view on the Nazis (the mainly catholic population of his hometown considered them all "canaille" which certainly helped to shape his views, too).
Another example is Alfred Grislawski. He came from a steadfast social-democratic family, which turned to the Communists after WW1. As such he was insulated from the NS propaganda and never joined the Hitler Youth (which in turn cost him his chance at any higher education). He joined the Luftwaffe because of his deep interest in flying (and to avoid being drafted as infantry soldier).

In the pre-ar times a lot of young men joined the Luftwaffe for reasons such as patriotism, love for flying, adventurism, militarism or simply family traditions (and, of course, to avoid the infantry). While the Luftwaffe was a lot more "NS-infected" than the Kriegsmarine or the Heer personal motives and political views always remained just that - personal.


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#2622781 - 11/25/08 10:06 AM Re: A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: csThor]  
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Hi'
Just a few things I consider important. Most german youth vere very angry at the completely idotic
economic terms imposed on Germany after WW1. This laid the foundation for the Nazi party wanting revenge !!
This is well documented. After WW2 that error was not repeated.
Happy Landings
Benny

#2622793 - 11/25/08 11:12 AM Re: A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: BennyTJorgensen]  
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You could make it an early member of JG53/1, who deliberately painted out the swastikas from their 109's during the Battle of Britain:


"While JG 53 was making a reputation for itself during the Battle of Britain, according to RAF Air Ministry intelligence summary no 60, Reichsmarshall Hermann Göring was informed that Major Jurgen von Cramon-Taubadel's wife was Jewish. Göring then ordered the whole of Stab/JG 53[1] to remove the "Pik As" emblem from their planes, and replace it with a red stripe around the engine cowling as punishment. All of Stab./JG 53's planes immediately were stripped of their "Pik As" insignia, and soon after the whole of the Stab./JG 53 had also stripped the swastikas off the tails of their planes, possibly in protest. During this phase of the Battle of Britain, Stab.JG 53's planes were easily recognizable because of the red band and the absence of a swastika on the tail of their Bf-109's."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JG_53

#2623351 - 11/26/08 01:21 AM Re: A little more on Peter Henn. [Re: Feathered_IV]  
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Thanks for the info...it has to be a late war home defense squadron though. I'll do some reading on JG53.


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