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#2611678 - 11/06/08 12:51 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Tolwyn]  
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Tolwyn Offline
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Tolwyn  Offline
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I always feel uncomfortable in threads like this.

Here's (even more definitive) proof (aside from testing CPU overhead with Tom's Hardware utilities on AMD, Intel, Core2, QuadCore stuff):

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?gId=3146689&sec=REVIEWS&r=7669790
http://www.ocforums.com/showpost.php?s=6...amp;postcount=7

FSX tasks can be assigned a core affinity, but this does not mean multithreaded. People simply confuse what the terminology means.

Processor Affinity:

Quote:
as said earlier, FSX cannot take the advantage of multicore, so having two CPUs won't help at all.

If you don't mind running at 1024 x 768 for now, i would say having a budget computer of 1,000 will be more than enough.



Quote:
its been explained by the developers as a case of technology changing
mid-stream, and unfortunately, the multicore design hit the market quicker
than that programmers could react.

My understanding is that it is very difficult to program to effectively use
multi-core processors, as the data stream is split and prioritized, then has
to be synchronized on the output side. Even with that said, FSX makes
limited use of multicore, but the largest use for multicores, is for one core
to run the program, while the secondary (third or fourth for the QX
processors) to run your background services, such as windows apps and
antivirus.


Quote:

Based o my knowledge, I agree with Dustin Harper's opinion. FSX does take advantage of multiple CORES. You may follow these steps to check if it is using the dual core.

1. Start the game, and then press the Windows logo key on the taskbar or
press "CTRL+ALT+DELETE" to open the Task Manager window.
2. Click on the Processes Tab
3. Right click "FSX.exe" process and left click on SET AFFINITY
4. Please confirm if the check marks for CPU 0 and CPU 1 have been checked.
5. Close the Task Manager window, and maximize the game.


Quote:

I tend to remember reading a blog of Phil Taylors from Aces team,
after the Service pack was released, to go to task manager ( right
click on task bar) select applications, find FSX.exe ( FSX has to be
running of course) and change the affiinity to 2 for the cores.

I have not be able to test this myself, as my Vista Ultimate 64bit
does not reconisge that I have a dual core cpu, even though in device
manager it listes two cpu's
But is system details (where the Vista score is, it says I have only
one core.

I have MS Vista tech support looking into this now, so far 24 hours
later not heard from them.

I get a feeling from googling, that this is a common problem with
Vista, but mainly for AMD processsors.
Anyway else heard of this problem?
I can't even change the graph from Task manager view performance to
more than one as there is only one core, but I have swap posts with a
guy at Dell support foroums who has exactly same DImension PC and
Intel processor and Vista and he doesn't have a problem, so problem
must be my installation of Vista??

Hope what I suggested above helps,
If you go to FLightsim.com and then to their FSX foroum, some of the
guys there will know what I am talking about.

Last edited by Tolwyn; 11/06/08 01:05 AM.

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#2611704 - 11/06/08 01:45 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Tolwyn]  
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Rilex Offline
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Rilex  Offline
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You're taking uneducated user opinions from forums and showing that as proof? Why don't you just come out and say "users are right, ACES team members are lying", since by your posts, that is exactly what you're saying.

Read:

http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007/04/09/fsx-sp1-news-intel-quote.aspx

Quote:

Flight Sim X SP1 greatly increases multicore utilization and will scale as more threads are available leading to reduced load times as well as frame rate improvements and greater visual complexity during flight.


Continuing on with the quotes from Phil Taylor, former ACES team member and code monkey...

Quote:

At load time, we run the terrain loading on threads across the cores. This can result in reduced load times, the actual percent reduction can vary but it could be reduced by as much as 1/3.

At render time, we run the terrain texture synthesis on threads across the cores. During flight on multi-core machines, as terrain and terrain textures are loaded you will notice significant multi-core usage.


Notice how the word "thread" comes in plural form in this quote. He didn't use "threads" by accident.

Please stop quoting uneducated users and offering it as proof. You don't understand that a process is not what is executed, you don't understand process affinity and what that means (hint: it means threads from that process can be executed on the cores it is assigned to; all by default), and you don't understand what it means to have a multithreaded application (do you honestly believe that any game in recent history runs on a single thread, a single path of execution, when we have rendering, AI, I/O, sound, etc. going all at the same time? Are you suggesting that after each action, FSX destroys the thread, say to run the sound, creates a new one to render graphics, destroys that, creates one to do AI, rinse and repeat?).

Yet, you're stubborn enough to continue to say FSX is not a multithreaded application (actually, you've said it isn't optimized for multithreading, before going back to say it isn't multithreaded again...so I'm not quite sure what you believe).

Please stop misleading and confusing others. You believe FSX is a "multi-processor" application, yet FSX isn't a multi-process application. Also, a process is not executed on the processor. So, what does this mean? This means that FSX is a multi-threaded application and can take advantage of multiple cores via having more than one thread executed at any single point in time.

Again...

A PROCESS IS NOT EXECUTED ON A PROCESSOR. A THREAD IS. IN ORDER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MULTIPLE CORES, YOU MUST HAVE MULTIPLE THREADS TO BE EXECUTED ON SAID MULTIPLE CORES.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

#2611838 - 11/06/08 09:16 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Rilex]  
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Kosmo. Offline
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First let me say that I haven't bothered at all with FSX so I have no idea if it's multithreaded or not. Rilex, though you are obviously a fellow programmer and obviously understand what multithreading means you seem to be making a small mistake, or maybe you didn't express it correctly. Having textures cached on another processor is not multithreading, otherwise all games are multihtreaded since they all load textures to the graphics card and use the cards' processor. Multithreading is not about running different threads on different processors, it's running them simultaneously.

#2611985 - 11/06/08 03:29 PM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Rilex]  
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Heretic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rilex
Continuing on with the quotes from Phil Taylor, former ACES team member and code monkey...


Team member yes, code monkey...well...Phil was "just" the marketing and public relations guy of the ACES team...

He did a great job nonetheless.

#2612048 - 11/06/08 05:10 PM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Kosmo.]  
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Rilex Offline
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Rilex  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kosmo.
Having textures cached on another processor is not multithreading, otherwise all games are multihtreaded since they all load textures to the graphics card and use the cards' processor.


Disk I/O does require a thread, hence it is a seperate thread. When it comes to threading, none of this dicussion involves the GPU.

#2612350 - 11/07/08 01:44 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Rilex]  
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Tolwyn Offline
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Tolwyn  Offline
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Not at all, Rilex.
Actually, I program in VB, .NET, Javascript, ASP, PHP, Cold Fusion, People Code (PeopleSoft), Java Server Pages and am a system analyst for a huge local gov't agency.

:-)

Seems like you just want to be right in this thread. Okay. That's fine.

No. GPU is something completely different than mutli-core processing, Rilex. That I do agree with you on.

Did I say it was optimized for anything? Hardly.
Multicore utilization is not multi-threading. That, again, is processor affinity.

Reducing load times all day long, the game experience does not benefit from any sort of multithreading. You can put texture loads on core1, and Windows processes on Core 'n'. That doesn't mean the game is taking advantage of multi-cores. man oh man oh man this is fun.


My personal licensing agreement: In exchange for my hard-earned cash for your product, you agree to the following terms: No part of my hardware may be used as a mechanism to verify or reverify my economical patronage. My receipt will serve that purpose. If you disagree with this license, you may return my money to me, and I'll return your product. \:\)
#2612365 - 11/07/08 02:44 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Tolwyn]  
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Rilex Offline
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Web-based dev involves very little, if any, threading on your part.

Quote:

You can put texture loads on core1, and Windows processes on Core 'n'.


No, you can't do that. Windows will do it, you don't manage where other processes are (this is a fundamental architectural point in modern OSes). FSX can, and does, spin off multiple threads. Some threads cannot run optimially with others, other threads can. Windows manages the scheduling of threads for you.

You cannot use 1+N cores without being multithreaded. You keep stating "multicore", but you don't understand the terminology. Period. Web dev isn't going to teach you this, so I can see why you'd easily get the terminology confused. In order to use 1+N cores at any one time, your application MUST be multithreaded. A thread can only run on a single core at any one time.

#2612381 - 11/07/08 03:40 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Rilex]  
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Tolwyn Offline
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Tolwyn  Offline
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What???

No. Sir, No. Good luck. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm fine in standing by EVERYTHING I've said in this specific forum thread. Period.


My personal licensing agreement: In exchange for my hard-earned cash for your product, you agree to the following terms: No part of my hardware may be used as a mechanism to verify or reverify my economical patronage. My receipt will serve that purpose. If you disagree with this license, you may return my money to me, and I'll return your product. \:\)
#2612395 - 11/07/08 04:12 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Tolwyn]  
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Rilex Offline
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I'm still curious how you get a process (which isn't executed) to run across 8 cores with only a single thread executing.

BTW, load up Process Explorer with FSX running. Let us know how many thread objects you see.

#2612404 - 11/07/08 04:27 AM Re: please tell me the truth about FSX and multi-processing.. [Re: Rilex]  
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JAS39 Offline
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this argument is getting interesting! and it is not breaking any forum rules...I like the opinions...


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