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#2577414 - 08/30/08 07:33 AM Most accurately modeled FM?  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Okay, folks, we all have our little gripes about this plane or that, but the question is which plane in the simulation is actually modeled the most accurately?

My money is on the Hurricane IIb, based on what Wing Commander (ret) Tim Elkington has written on our squadron forums and what I can replicate based on that in the simulation. Stuff like how the Hurricane could be "floated" into a three pointer at the stall (80 MPH) and other things.

Then again, it's my favorite plane to fly, so I know it pretty well and have sufficient skills to actually make it do the things he says it did in real life.

What say you?


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#2577418 - 08/30/08 08:01 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Dart]  
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I guess we have to go by what feels right as I am guessing not many of us have actually the flown the real ones \:D

But my money is on the Spit IX for the stock planes as that is a shear delight to fly around the new map at low level.

But if I am allow to mention the dreaded M.O.D. word I would go for the Spit Mk1 which is totally superb.

However, I am also a fan of the 109s and the early 190s.

I don't like the Mustang or the later 190s. Not really flown much else.

#2577419 - 08/30/08 08:04 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: NineLives]  
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Lifer

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Stock simulation, mind you....let's say 4.08m as the version.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
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#2577430 - 08/30/08 08:34 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Dart]  
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I think the 109 has an excellent "feel" in this sim.

It's definitely the aircraft that differs most from what I've experienced in other sims. In Il2 it "fits like glove", just like the aces said. In technical terms I guess it means it's responsive and has good acceleration.


"I prefer to fly alone ... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me" - René Fonck
#2577501 - 08/30/08 02:56 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Guderian]  
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 Originally Posted By: Guderian
I think the 109 has an excellent "feel" in this sim.

It's definitely the aircraft that differs most from what I've experienced in other sims. In Il2 it "fits like glove", just like the aces said. In technical terms I guess it means it's responsive and has good acceleration.


x2.. I've been surveying each 109 model in campaign mode. Supposedly, it had poor lateral control at high speeds, which is noticeable in the game as well as having the wing slats snatch at the ailerons in tight turns - another characteristic which has been documented. Though I haven't noticed the 'severe swing' as much in take offs or landings. I've been most successful using the 'E' in early Barbarossa campaigns. But that shouldn't be too surprising.

I've found the Hurricane to be a comfortable and forgiving machine. The speed characteristics hamper pursuit however. But, in the turn, it's pretty effective. (Supposedly it had a better turn radius than the 109 or Spitfire).


It's a Game. smile
#2577542 - 08/30/08 04:42 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Boilerplate*]  
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[mod]



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Last edited by Dart; 08/30/08 05:25 PM. Reason: Aw, c'mon, gimme a break.
#2577636 - 08/30/08 08:59 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: j p]  
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Well am not sure which FM is more accurate. However, since the entire FM is calculation based, if one model is off, they are all off.

Example: It is well documented that the Spitfire (...all models until someone finds one that isn't) flew level with a nose up attitude at high speed and at attitude. This means that when cruising at say 6000M at 400Km/h, you should not be able to see the horizon because your nose is pointing slightly upwards (...the way the Fw 190 is now). However, it is not so in the game.

The opposite applies to the Fw 190A. Capt Brown documented that the Fw 190A flew with a nose down attitude, which meant the Fw 190 pilot flying at 6000M and 400Km/h could see over the nose of his aircraft and have a clear view of the horizon while maintaining level flight. Try doing that in in this game.

Also, the whole issue of wing load having a greater effect on an aircrafts performance in rather than power to weight ratio really give me no confidence that anything in this game is quite accurate.

In conclusion, it's just a game \:\)


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#2577652 - 08/30/08 09:32 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: X_MAN]  
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 Originally Posted By: X_MAN

In conclusion, it's just a game \:\)


Hmmm... where have I heard that one? ;\)


It's a Game. smile
#2577654 - 08/30/08 09:33 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: X_MAN]  
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Gooday X Man ... Iam playing the Devils Advocate \:\)

xx flies nose up and yy flies nose down.... a fairly generic comment. Data not feel or comments determines the accuracy or not of an FM. In this area cruise body attitude its easy. About 99% of the worlds subsonic aerofoils want to cruise at 4 degrees AOA (max L/D). What then determines if XX or YY cruise nose up or nose down revolves around the wings incidence or "Riggers angle" ... the Whitley is a case in point. So if you find the Incidence you can quite easily predict the body angle of any aeroplane at max range cruise. As to Capt Brown I dont think he mentioned a speed in his comment. As AOA in level flight varies directly with speed (IAS) so the faster you go the lower the body attitude.... I havent so far found any refrence that alludes to this nose high attitude in the Spitfire.

Who says Wing loading has a greater effect on aircrafts performance rather than power loading in IL2 ? In manoeuvering flight the two work hand in hand the result is specific excess power which takes into account both wing loading and Power loading. Excess power determines just about everything in the performance side of the FM under 1G or any G for that matter. It determines sustained turn performance, Rate of Climb, acceleration, max steady state speed. In the testing I have done (lots \:\) I was surprised just how close to the available data aircraft in IL2 actually are.

If you want to talk about FM acuracy then Data is the only way to verify or crucify an FM.

#2577665 - 08/30/08 10:02 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: IvanK]  
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The Do 335 feels pretty good too..

Many years ago, when I was a youth, way before the time of computer sims, I purchased a book called "Combat Aircraft" by Bill Gunston. I still have it to this day (tho' frayed as it is) and refer to it from time to time. It contains profiles and several paragraphs on each type mentioned. Mainstream machines as well as curios from the inception of combat flight through the seventies are illustrated. Much of my comparison is aided by this book. Although, many of the characteristics described originate from pilot accounts of the period, they are subjective. (For instance the 109 G is cited as not being the pleasant machine that the E and F were and is quoted as having 'malicious' flight characteristics - definitely subjective) It doesn't contain co-efficient tables or any of that higher education stuff, but it does give you a notion for what these planes were like to fly.


Last edited by Boilerplate*; 08/31/08 01:22 AM.

It's a Game. smile
#2577671 - 08/30/08 10:08 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Boilerplate*]  
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Lifer

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Guys, c'mon.

Which is the most accurately done, not the worst.

No broad based sim that goes for 40 bucks and is commercial software is going to be perfectly accurate; the question is which one is closest?

XMan, remember that most plane FM's have variations applied to it from the global calculations to cure some problems, usually from changing the global physics models.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#2577677 - 08/30/08 10:18 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Dart]  
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Dart,

Probably what you'll find is that many of the models judged as 'best' still have flyable examples today.


It's a Game. smile
#2577684 - 08/30/08 10:36 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Dart]  
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Not for any particular scientific reason, but the SBD Dauntless seems good to me.

#2577718 - 08/30/08 11:50 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: WWSandMan]  
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Ok, what about the namesake plane? The Il-2 seems to fit what I read about it and certainly is not stellar performer in any one area, but does a darn good job of ground pounding.

Dart, sorry but come on I was kidding. I really am impressed still with Il-2 and how much it gets right in FMs and overall.

#2577805 - 08/31/08 04:30 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: j p]  
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I think there is something wrong with the basic fm when it comes to that critical phase from stall to spin. In IL2 I get and see others do what I call the IL2 wobble. I have never seen this in any movie or real life and I've talked to Steven190 who is a pilot and avid IL2 flier and he agrees. If the IL2 wobble is correct I would like to see a video of a real prop plane going from stall to spin doing the same thing. I confess, I am no pilot and have little knowledge of the subject so I look forward to being enlightened.

Uriah


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#2577831 - 08/31/08 06:01 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Uriah]  
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I think IL2 models the transition from departure to developed spin better than just about any other Sim I have tried. What exactely do you mean by little wobble.

In a number of high performance aeroplanes I have a flown a "little wobble" or resistance to do what you are asking it to do is the aeroplane saying back of buddy I am about to bite.... Il2 does this pretty well.

#2577859 - 08/31/08 08:58 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: IvanK]  
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According to the best of the Russian teams that I have met online ( =FB=, SLI= , etc... ), who actually HAVE members flying real WWII birds from time to time, they say that the aircraft that is most accurately modelled are the early russian fighters. Fighters such as the MiG, Yak1, LaGG3 1941 and i-16. If I remember correctly, one of them told me that the 109 and mustang were not even close AT ALL to the real life versions. Remember, I cannot prove to you that what they say is true, only that I can tell you that these people on those teams know Oleg personally, and are actually winners again and again of IL2 tournaments. They are NOT amatuers and are very very good, and seem to know what they are doing and what they are talking about, and many of them are on the 1946 DVD in the pictures section holding trophies at some Chinese 2v2 tournament held in China. If you see them on Hyperlobby, feel free to ask them. Many of them speak english and are very friendly.

#2577876 - 08/31/08 10:26 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Ironman69]  
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Well there are a lot of IL2 real world pilots that know Oleg personally and contribute, some have experience in WWII warbirds as well, the same goes for Warbird engine experts. As to the 109 ... not many 109 warbirds in Russia !. In fact with the greatest respect the warbird movement in Russia is pretty light on, A Mig 3 powered by an Allison engine (bound for the US) and some I153s and I16s most of which have been exported.

My vote would be the Mustang as the one of the best. For the so called Russians to say its one of the worst is a joke. Go do the tests yourself see how close the climb times are see how close the Vmax figures are, See how accurate the Supercharg shift heights are. Its not pefect but its pretty good effort I think

#2577887 - 08/31/08 11:46 AM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Uriah]  
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 Originally Posted By: Uriah
I think there is something wrong with the basic fm when it comes to that critical phase from stall to spin.

Uriah


Well not all stall behaviors perform as they do in EAW. The fact is, these planes were more stable than what is represented by that particular simulation.


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#2578004 - 08/31/08 05:18 PM Re: Most accurately modeled FM? [Re: Boilerplate*]  
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