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#2489283 - 04/07/08 12:20 AM Will this game support force feedback ?  
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fearlesslds Offline
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Or does that not exist anymore ?


scott hill
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#2489349 - 04/07/08 03:29 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: fearlesslds]  

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I certainly hope not. Force feedback is the worst thing to happen to joysticks in the entire history of joysticks! It's an extremely unrealistic feature, in all past and current incarnations, and it actually hampers the player instead of helping him as it should. Theoretically, it's a good idea. But I can't see any way of implementing it even half-way decently without causing the joystick to cost over a thousand dollars. At any rate, I hope no resources are wasted on force feedback support. We don't need that gimmock gumming things up.

#2489378 - 04/07/08 04:31 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: fearlesslds]  
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 Originally Posted By: fearlesslds
Or does that not exist anymore ?



Why would there be any feedback support to a game that doesn't exist?

#2489442 - 04/07/08 08:48 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Sim]  
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I have a force feedback headset - or at least I did until the vibrating bits packed up. It was a very peculiar sensation, to say the least.



Once upon a time there was dunkelgrun...
#2489445 - 04/07/08 08:57 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Sim]  
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Yes it will. Just a feeling you understand. The buzz will be back shortly.

Microsoft sticks can be set up by the MS ForceEdit application to have exactly the right amount of feedback on pre-stall and concrete shuttering bumpiness, return-to-centre spring etc. Just a little rattling on rolling down the runway, just a hint of pre-stall edginess.

Best though with FF kit is the change in the control surfaces under the transition from slow to fast airspeeds, when the ailerons for example lose control authority at higher speeds, both hands. How can you fly a plane with feedback from the control surfaces that feels like nothing at all at any airspeed. It's like- no let's not go there

WW1 planes have large control surface areas and all sorts of weird control surface configurations. We must be able to feel the airflow through the stick... high powered planes have a tendency to keep going if something's wrong but a slow plane will fall out of the sky right away if you lose control authority. Plus you're a lot lower for the same time flying so spins will rarely be survivable until we get the hang of it. Proper physics, no training wheels to assist takeoff like earlier BoB sims

Especially we'll need force feedback when one is a Camel driver which explains why the WW1 Officers Mess was called the Casbah and why they're all wearing fezzes and false moustaches in some photos

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2489468 - 04/07/08 10:39 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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Will KOTS support force feedback?

I certainly hope so, well programmed FF (IL2, Condor) can be very immersive. What we don't need is loads of canned effects, just the weight of the control surfaces please.

If you don't like it you can always switch it off and have standard twangy stick centering.


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#2489469 - 04/07/08 10:46 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: ]  
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 Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
I certainly hope not. Force feedback is the worst thing to happen to joysticks in the entire history of joysticks! It's an extremely unrealistic feature, in all past and current incarnations, and it actually hampers the player instead of helping him as it should. Theoretically, it's a good idea. But I can't see any way of implementing it even half-way decently without causing the joystick to cost over a thousand dollars. At any rate, I hope no resources are wasted on force feedback support. We don't need that gimmock gumming things up.


While I appreciate your concern that resources may be 'wasted' on a feature that you don't care for, a disagree 100%.
The word 'realistic' is a joke when applied to combat flight sims in general (unless you are prepared to actually kill yourself when the screen goes black- if so, respect).
What FFB does is help give some of the tactile feedback that pilots would experience, even if it is missapplied. I'm guessing you've never used a decent FFB stick, otherwise you wouldn't be saying that it hampers the pilot- I find my Sidewiders 1 + 2 a godsend, and particularly for aircraft of this period, I think it will be incredibly important- only slightly less so than TIR 6dof.

#2489477 - 04/07/08 11:09 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: tagTaken2]  
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I hope FFB will be included, although somebody needs to release a decent FFB stick - our MSFFB2's aren't going to last forever!

(even though it feels like they will last forever!) \:\)


FS~Valisk 'Val'
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"I've never seen the Icarus story as a lesson about the limitations of humans. I see it as a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive." - Randall Munroe
#2489612 - 04/07/08 02:13 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Valisk_61]  
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Agreed

Motor racing simmers have high level wheels with FFB, what we need is a good quality FFB stick. CH should make one.


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#2489690 - 04/07/08 04:28 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Mogster]  
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Untill now, we havent work over this feature, but we hope we will have enough of time to complete it before release, so just cross yer fingers ;\)


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#2489699 - 04/07/08 04:35 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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If you only get time to implement one FFB effect, can we have loading on the control surfaces please! \:D

Last edited by Valisk_61; 04/07/08 04:36 PM.

FS~Valisk 'Val'
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"I've never seen the Icarus story as a lesson about the limitations of humans. I see it as a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive." - Randall Munroe
#2490566 - 04/08/08 10:04 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Valisk_61]  
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Well, every flight sim the last 15 years or so has had support for FFB so I can not even imagine a game like this without it...

The trusty MS FFB2 is the only joystick that works well as mentioned above, and IL2 without it looses so much immersion for me at least... God forbid that it stops working now that they are impossible to find. I have tuned down some of the "overmodeled" effects in FFB edit etc. Without getting the indication of the stick pressure/stall buffeting it gets really hard for me at least doing those maniac knife edge turns in a 109 at low altitude without beeing afraid of pulling too hard... For me, FFB is almost as important as TrackIR for immersion.

An interesting side note is that MS themselves have probably ruined the reputation of FFB joysticks by the disastrous FF support in the FS/CFS series...

#2490694 - 04/09/08 02:58 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: fearlesslds]  
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To show you how long it's been since I played a WW1 game , all the force feedback did when I played was shake when you used the mgs . The other stuff mentioned would be a nice addition.


scott hill
#2490697 - 04/09/08 03:00 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Sim]  
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Sim , I was hoping there would be FF esp for you so you can stop roughing up your mule there.


scott hill
#2490753 - 04/09/08 05:13 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: fearlesslds]  
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 Originally Posted By: fearlesslds
Sim , I was hoping there would be FF esp for you so you can stop roughing up your mule there.

Is that an offer for some weird sexual practice? roughing up a mule with FF......

#2490830 - 04/09/08 09:58 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: mazex]  
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 Originally Posted By: mazex

An interesting side note is that MS themselves have probably ruined the reputation of FFB joysticks by the disastrous FF support in the FS/CFS series...


Interesting, I had the impression that it was only a few isolated individuals including me, that had unworkable effects with FS/CFS and MSFFB sticks... that's pretty incredible, that their flagship products don't work with their expensively-developed and custom designed hardware. So embarrassing, so MS.

Still mad about reading this afternoon that their OOXML is going to be adopted as a standard

#2490845 - 04/09/08 11:01 AM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Nope...the CFS series is notorious for it's poor FF performance. MS defining the word Irony for us

#2491135 - 04/09/08 07:30 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Brigstock]  
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Always hated the FS version of FF, totally different to everyone elses, bonkers. I can understand the logic behind what happens (linkage slop etc) but it still doesn't make me enjoy the end result.

Yes, the FF has always been bugged for me in the FS series. If you don't like their effects then turning them off leaves you with no centering forces at all \:\(


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#2491136 - 04/09/08 07:32 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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 Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS
Untill now, we havent work over this feature, but we hope we will have enough of time to complete it before release, so just cross yer fingers ;\)


I hope so, I can't imagine a prop sim without control surface weight FF.


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#2491220 - 04/09/08 09:31 PM Re: Will this game support force feedback ? [Re: Mogster]  
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 Originally Posted By: Mogster

Yes, the FF has always been bugged for me in the FS series. If you don't like their effects then turning them off leaves you with no centering forces at all \:\(


Yes - that part is even more annoying than the fact that the FF effects are insane... No way of getting it right. If we could just have a self centering spring effect with our Microsoft hardware.

Regarding the FF support in the FS series I'm amazed that they did not fix it in FSX... They are just as bad as ever with the MS FFB2. Limp in the middle and then suddenly jerks back when you move to far from the large dead center - and with a random delay! It's like a strong madman with bad reactions flying dual command with you, trying to counter every move you do...

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