Not according to the book Gunner which had some stats by the USAAF on the positions the attacks came from. Front and rear attacks were equal.



It depends on the time period as several configurations were used.

It took an experienced to pull off a headon attack. For that reason alone logic dictates they did not constitute the majority of attacks, but as I understand it SOP was to begin the attack from headon if possible.

Several RAF squadrons used the same tactic during the Battle of Britain. As well as making the bombers more vulnerable it also has the advantage of breaking up their formation. However followon attacks were in all likelihood made from the rear, if for no other reason than the fact that it took too long to reposition for another frontal pass.

For Zerstörers and jets it was SOP to attack from the rear. The special bomber-killer Fw 190s attacked in line abreast formation (called "company front") from the rear.

Thanks very much for this great material Buzzsaw. I've been playing around with the formations this afternoon. I'm not sure how closely I'll be able to replicate the formations as everything goes to pieces when they make a turn. It's really hard getting the bombers at higher altitudes to keep pace with the lower ones, too. I really wish Oleg had built in the ability to manage formationsrather than just flights.

Interesting to read about the length of bomber streams -up to 100km long. I 'm not sure about how dense to pack the bombers. In my first, rough mock up I wanted to create the impression of a huge sprawling mass of bombers so I spread them like this:

but I also like the look of the more compact boxes (no pics yet).

The notes on the LW ops will be very useful. Already I can see doing a mission or two where the player lands, "refuels" then attacks the same group on the way home. Hienz Knoke (sp?) account will also be very handy in this respect.


The hard things for me will be:
Balancing big formations with playable frame rates
Balancing big formation robo-gunners with survivability - it has to be doable and fun for the player.

Finding time to do any work on it.

Any ideas for maps, gents? I'm not a fan of the vivid colours of the Normandy map. I'm thinking of using the Kurland maps (online for the big formations and full for smaller or low alt missions) to represent either Northern Germany or possibly the Channel coast. They have better shades, aren't bad on frame rates and have nicelighting/cloud effects. It depends a bit on which unit I base the campaign around of course but as we don't have may real maps I am quite happy to use a substitute.

Begun, the screenshots have!


So far I'm up to 51 bombers and just the one flight of interceptors. I think it stuttered a bit at the start but after that it seemed okay. Can a couple of people help me out with seeing how it runs on their systems? So far it's just two bunches of planes heading towards each other - no briefing,flak etc.

Anyway, even if 40-ish is the limit they can still look really impressive.

Its even more impressive when its HUMAN piloted waves of Hi-ALT bombers as per some of the Sunday night bomber intercept missions on WarClouds.

Trust me there is nothing more impressive in this game than seeing a close formation of human piloted B-25s coming at you as you go in for a head-on in a 110

Hi Flatspinman,

There are a number of good B-17 skins here:

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads2&c=167

Also I remember Mysticpuma made a lot of B-17 skins for a movie he was making. I think they were uploaded somewhere after the movie was released.

I have a copy of Jane's 'Battles with the Luftwaffe - The Bomber Campaign Against Germany 1942-45'. It has a huge amount of info in it about specific raids and *many* photos of both the defenders and the attackers. If I can be of use about any specific raids/ dates please let me know.

Edit: There is also a new late war German voice file around with female controllers which is very good and adds greatly to the atmosphere.

RedToo.

Here is a link for B-17f images.........

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial%26sa%3DG

He appears to have quite a collection of various aircraft, hope this helps.

Salute

Here's a photo which shows what the formations might look like and what the separation might be. In the distance you can see another Squadron formation.



Another shot, this one likely from the High Squadron, looking down on the Lead Squadron. The Low Squadron is not visible, but likely would be a couple thousand feet directly below the aircraft from where the photo is taken. Ahead in the far distance, you can see another formation.



The fact that there was considerable distance between the Boxes emerged from the time and space required to form them. Each Group required an area of England over which it formed its Combat Box. The forming happened in a gradual series of circling climbs, which required a lot of airspace. Imagine the disaster which could happen if two Heavy Bombardment Groups crossed paths during their form up.

Salute

One thing I didn't mention was bomb altitude.

Typical missions over Germany would be between 25,000 and 30,000 ft. The deeper the target was into Germany, the higher the altitude, as the distance gave time for the bombers to climb. Targets in France might be bombed from 18-19,000 ft, but that would be as low as they'd go.

Luftwaffe fighters generally performed poorly when compared to USAAF at higher altitudes, so for that reason, the higher the bombers were, the better. However, this had to be balanced against the fact that at altitudes over 30,000 ft, the extreme cold began to cause mechanical malfunctions, plus the open side gunner doors made frostbite a real problem.

The other advantage of high altitude bombing was that the flak was less accurate. In IL-2 heavy, (not light) flak guns are far more accurate than they were in real life. For that reason, you need to reduce the number of flak guns way down from historical levels, or you get a massacre. (and frame rate issues) Whereas the Luftwaffe ground units deployed 100's of flak guns around targets, you should limit them to 10's.

IL-2's high altitude modelling is unfortunatly not very well done. The game is primarily focused around an Eastern front style of combat, which happened most of the time under 15,000 ft.

Redtoo - thanks for the link. Strangely I thought I had found all the relevant skins at M4T but I had overlooked the B-17F folder due to the pic of the early model B17 above the name. Anyway, what's in there looks excellent - thanks a lot.

blit_ZEN - those are nice profiles. I can't make skins but they were still interesting to see and could come in handy.

Buzzsaw - again, good info you have provided, thanks a lot. I'm quite surprised at the spacing - I thought they'd be closer together. I currently am trying about 20 metres vertical spacing between high, low and lead flights. In the top photo the V shape is more pronounced than I currently have yet in the lower one they seem to be in a line. Perhaps they're still forming up? I guess too, that we're only seeing a very narrow segment of the formation.
You can see how close they are in my practice mission. All up they spread over an area of about 2km I'd say.


I'm probably going to put them at altitudes between 6000 (20,000 feet) and 8000 (26,000 feet) meters. It's about right and any higher up and the planes feel like they're skating on ice. In the pics I posted above they're ranged between 6480 and 6520 meters and I quite like the effect. It has the feel of altitude but handling is not so annoying.

Don't worry about the flak - even with just guns ina practice mission there was a fair amount of flak. I'll probably go up to about 20 guns at the most around a heavily defended target. Similarly, with fighters I'll use fewer than in real life - again, they're too deadly. I bagged four B-17's easily in on emission last night. In all, probably 8 Forts went down. Actually, even though this will be a Luftwaffe campaign (I am probably going to release it as a B-17 campaign,too for the unapproved alterations to the game) it is really saddening watching the big birds drop out of the sky. Their damage models and characteristics really seem to echo the footage I've seen.





I forget if I've said it already but so far I'm up to 51 bombers. Originally I had the weather set to rain/snow as I like the cloud base effect it gives. However, that ran a bit rough so I changed it to clear and had smooth play. I'll definitely use the clouds for other missions though, particularly to simulate the frequent use of radar bombing. Plus it makes my targets really stand out.

Really amazing, never fighted against such a formation on Il2, tought If we have something similar already released?

As I said in a previous post, different formation configurations were used.








As to bombing heights,

Missions of Lt. William A. Ryan, Jr.:

From: Robert P. Ryan [mailto:rryan@guamcell.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:35 AM
To: Jan Riddling
Subject: Re: 100th_BG_Historian

Corrected Copy - Corrected a couple of minor transcription errors.

Jan:
Here are the details of my father's missions (Lt William Ryan, Jr) which he wrote into a small
notebook that I presume he carried with him. I have transcribed it just as he wrote
it, in form, punctuation and capitalization.

#1
April 25, 1944
Dijon, France
Airfield
10-500 pound G.P. Bombs
Flack over Paris and coast on return

#2
Wed, April 26
Brunswick, Germany
42-100 lb Inc.
Heavy flack two holes in ship
Alt 19000 ft
P.F.F.

#3
Thurs, April 27
Rocket Installation at Cherbourg, France
Heavy flack
Bomb load 16-500 lb G.P. Armor Piercing
Alt 20,000

#4
Friday, April 28
Heavy weapon installation at Cherbourg, France
Very Heavy Flack
Lost Colonel
Bomb load 6-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 21,000

#5
Saturday, April 29
Berlin, Germany
Heavy Flack
Bomb Load 3-1000 lb G.P., 5-500 lb Inc. Clus.
Ran low on oxygen and gas
Bomb racks malfunction
Altitude 27,000 ft

#6
Monday, May 1
St. Omer, France
Very little flack
Bomb load 6-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 25,000 ft.

#7
Sun, May 7
Berlin, Germany
Heavy Flack
Bomb Load 10-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 25,000 ft.

#8
Mon, May 8
Berlin, Germany
Super Heavy Flack
Bomb Load 10-500 lb Inc. Cluster
Altitude 27,500 ft.

#9
Friday, May 19
Berlin, Germany
Heavy & Accurate Flack
Bomb Load 5-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 24,000
Attacked by 12 FW 190
Bombadier got one on head on attack

#10
Saturday, May 20
Brussels, Belgium
Bomb Load 12-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 20,000
Flack Inaccurate

#11
Wed, May 24
Berlin, Germany
Heavy Flack
30 FW 190 attack
Lost 9 aircraft
Bomb Load 10-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 26,000 ft

#12
Saturday, May 27
Strasbourg, France
Engine Factory - Smeared It
Med. Flack
Bomb Load 10-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 24,000 ft

#12B
Wednesday, May 31
Osnabruck, Germany
Marshalling yard
Heavy Flack
Bomb load 6-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 24,000 ft

#14
Friday, June 2
Paris, France
Railroad Yards
Heavy Flack over target & Seine River on route out
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 21,000 ft.

#15
Sunday, June 4
Boulogne, France
A.A. Installation
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 24,000 ft.
No Flak

#16
Mon, June 5
Invasion Coast five miles South of Boulogne, France
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 25,000 ft.
Light Flak

#17
Tues, June 6
Invasion Coast at Caen, France
Bombs away at 0719
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P.
2-1000 lb G.P. Ext.
Altitude 14,000 ft.

#18
Wed, June 7
Nantes, France
R.R. Bridge
Bomb load 2-2000 lb G.P.
Altitude 21,000
Med Flak

#19
Sunday, June11
Gun Emplacement on Coast 20 miles N.W. of Abbyville
Bomb load 22-250 lb G.P.
Altitude 21,000

#20
Wed, June 14
Airfield 20 mi. S.E. of Brussels, France
(Did he mean Belgium here?)
Bomb load 38-100 lb G.B.
Altitude 23,000

#21
Fri, June 16
Oil Refinery at Bruxbuttlehaven, Germany
Accurate & Heavy Flak
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P.

#22
Thursday, June 29
Oil Refinery - Leipzig, Germany
Med. Flak - Very Accurate
Bomb load 20-250 lb G.P.
Altitude 23,500
Crew knocked down three M.E. 109

#23
Thursday July 6
Critieyl France
Rocket Bomb Ins.
Bomb Load 20-250 lb G.P.
No Flak
Altitude 24,000

#24
Friday July 7
Oil Refinery
Leipzig Germany
Heavy Flak
Bomb load 10-500 lb G.P.
Altitude 27,000 ft.

#25
Saturday July 8
R.R. Bridge
No Flak
Bomb load 2-2000 lb G.P.
Altitude 18,500 ft

#26
Tuesday July 11
Munich Germany
Heavy Flak
Bomb load 5-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 25,000 ft.
Lead low sqdn.

#27
Wed. July 12
Munich Germany
Heavy Flak
Bomb load 4-500 lb G.P. 6-500 lb Inc. Clus.
Altitude 26,000 ft.

#28
Friday July 14
Secret Mission
Bomb load 12-250 lb Containers
No Flak
Altitude 75 ft. above ground

#29
Mon July 17
Rocket Inst. in France
Bomb load 2-2000 lb G.P.
Heavy accurate flak
Damaged wing and engine
Altitude 23,000 ft.

#30
Wed. Aug 2
R.R. Bridge
La Fere France
Light Flak
Bomb load 6-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 19,000 ft.

#31
Thursday Aug 3
R.R. Junction & Bridge Troyes, France
Light Flak
Bomb load 20-250 lb G.P.
Altitude 15,000

#32
Friday Aug 4
Oil Refinery
Hamburg Germany
Heavy Flak
Bomb load 20-250 lb G.P.
Altitude 24,000 ft.

#33
Aug 8
St. Sylvain France
Enemy Lines
Very Heavy Accurate Flak
Bomb load 12-500 lb G.P. 2-1000 lb G.P.
External racks
Altitude 12,000 ft.

#34
Mon. Aug 14
Ludwigshaven Germany
Oil Refinery
Heavy Flack
Bomb Load 6-1000 lb G.P.
Altitude 25,000 ft.

#35
Brest France
Sept. 3, 1944
No Flak
Bomb load 12-500 pound S.A.P.
Altitude 7,500 feet FINISHED!

Here's 110 individual skins I created for the B-17 F with nosearts too:

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads2&file=details&id=1221

I managed to get a mission with 85 B-17's, 30 FW-190's and 48 P-47's all engaged at once. Had to run it at 1152x864, but it was a real blast. I needed it for the movie "Not my time to Die!", and PBNA-Boosher created it, so it is possible

Cheers, MP.

Hey MP - I just grabbed those very skins last night actually. Well done - what a huge job. I only want to include a few generic B17 skins in the campaign so can't use all yours but I would like to use your nosearts as they look better than the default ones. Would that be okay?
That mission sounds huge! Were you running in Perfect? I'm going to have to try it out. Do you still have the file?

KraziKanuk - those pictures are really helpful. I don't know if I can get them that accurate in the missionsbut I certainly now know what I'm aaiming at. An dthose pilot logs are very handy too. Is it a relative?

Stratos - there MUST be a similar campaign around - this theme is too cool to resist. I haven't played one though.

Salute

Nice work Krazi. I used to have a link to a site with those diagrams, but it seems to be dead now.

Of course, in real life, the formations were not as neat or pretty. In most situations, the Squadrons would be understrength, either due to previous combat losses, or due to aircraft aborting for mechanical reasons.

Flatspin:

In my experience, you can't get more than about 12 bombers in close proximity for the frame rate to be decent. Once all those .50 cals start to fire, it gobbles up processing power pretty fast. Combine that with the interceptors and escorts and you get a pretty busy sky. If you break up the bombers, and separate the groups of 12 by a considerable distance, it makes a difference.

Hey again,
Actually I'll let you in on my dirty secret - in my campaigns I tend to set some flights of bombers to Empty to avoid the very problem you mentioned. It's not realistic but makes the experience more surviveable and playable. Your solution would also be a good idea so I may try both ways.

The number of aircraft is a direct correlation with processing power. I can easily get 200 aircraft at once with my E6700 (475 MHz FSB *9) with AA/AF set to x8 (EVGA 8800 GTS (640MB) SLI

Lots of good data here - and links to even more.

http://www.8thafhs.org/

X-Man - can you post some pics or send me the file? I'd be interested to see. I'm pretty sure I get some slowing down with just 50+ aircraft in the air so if you can get 200 I want to know what uyou're doing. Ahh- actually I just noticed your graphics card is an 8800GTS with 640MB - that would help a lot. I have an 8600 GTS with just 256MB. I know the 8800 series are way better than than the 8600.
I'll try a really big number of planes and see what happens. Are you running on Perfect?What resolution do you use? Also, are they all armed or are some set to Empty?

Oscar_352nd - that is a really great resource. Thanks for pointing it out to me.