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#2226951 - 06/03/07 11:29 PM so what is so bad about it?  
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Blade_RJ Offline
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brasil
why so much negativity? is it buggy like EECH2?is it cluncly of feel like a unfinished product, or is just you guys whining cos its not as realistic as the made it look like?

please list what you liked dislike,but remember lets be polite.

btw is there a demo?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2227013 - 06/04/07 01:23 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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FokkerDVIII Offline
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Originally Posted By: Blade_RJ
why so much negativity? is it buggy like EECH2?is it cluncly of feel like a unfinished product, or is just you guys whining cos its not as realistic as the made it look like?

please list what you liked dislike,but remember lets be polite.

btw is there a demo?


Read all the previous threads and youll see why its such a terrible game.


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#2227040 - 06/04/07 02:07 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FokkerDVIII]  
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monkeezgob Offline
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A combination of being buggy and not particularly tactically realistic (which was how it was advertised). Like Akwar said, just read through the previous posts, that should fill you in.

Yes, there's a demo available at BFC...but I wouldn't recommend it.

Read the posts, play the demo and make your own mind up.

#2227053 - 06/04/07 02:30 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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commorange Offline
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Just to let you know, several of the fellows here have made this sub forum an anti - TOW forum, they have an agenda against the game and possibly Battlefront and or 1C. Not saying they are totally right or wrong, I happen to have been disappointed with it too at first but started to like it now, anyway I have quit posting here because all the threads are getting hijacked and some of us just want to talk about what we like about the game and not get into prolonged arguments. Anyways i suggest you look over this forum for the mostly - con remarks and check the TOW forums at Battlefront.com for positive things. BTW some of the ones posting here got banned at the Battlefront forums, again not saying it was or wasnt justified, however they are are vocal and opinionated, and they might tell you that nothing bad can be said about the game over there, but imo thats really not the case, theres plenty of threads critical of the game, in addition, you can read about nice features of it and people really enjoying it too. Anyway just a suggestion to help in your decision.


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#2227096 - 06/04/07 03:58 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: commorange]  
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SlapahoUK1 Offline
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what flakwagon said

I enjoy the game very much. I have made a few videos, they are posted on here somewhere.

#2227212 - 06/04/07 10:27 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: SlapahoUK1]  
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FinnN Offline
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There are people here who have stated they have a personal crusade to remind people that the game is rubbish, and that they'll do that to 'even out' positive comments on the game. Have a look through some of the threads if you don't believe me. As a result any thread started here is likely to get pulled into the gutter. I really like SimHQ and have done for years (my account has a new date because I didn't post or login for ages so I had to reregister) but I think in this case thing got out of hand. As a result I don't see much point in posting here about potential for mods (which I'd prefer to discuss on a non-official forum) or things I like in the game - as you can bet someone will pull it off topic.

That said, the game does have problems. Some of them are pretty big. Unfortunately the demo highlights these - I'd recommend you play the demo and if you think it's at all possible you might like the game then it may be worth considering as the game itself is better. If not, then definitely don't buy it. Personally I'd wait for the patch/extra campaign before buying if you have doubts.

Have fun
Finn

#2227289 - 06/04/07 12:54 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FinnN]  
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Jeevz Offline
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I think the game is amateurish at best. It definitely plays like it's their first RTS and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn the last RTS the devs played came out in the 90's. Great idea, some of the worst execution I've ever seen. That being said if my coaster ever comes in the mail and you decide you want it I'll sell it to you cheap.


Commence to Jigglin'
#2227355 - 06/04/07 02:33 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Jeevz]  
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Blade_RJ Offline
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brasil
thanks all for the educated posts,ill try the demo and see for myself,thanks.

#2227485 - 06/04/07 05:21 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Chazman1946 Offline
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Arizona
While you are testing the demo, see if any, if not all of my points don't ring true.

1. Complete lack of concealment from trees, shrubs, tall grass etc. etc. Infantry laying prone in tall grass being mowed down from button up tanks on the opposite side of the map, with three tree lines in between.

2. Medicore sound

3. AI of human controlled troops is that of a functional idiot (refuse to lay prone in trenches and insist sticking their heads up to get shot), while the AI of the computer controlled troops is that of super human qualities, x-ray vision, deadly accuracy, knowing where the human controlled troops are at all times, irregardless of terrain obstructions to LOS, etc. etc. etc.

4. Troops and tanks don't respond to commands as they should and do ridiculus things such as instead of retreating in reverse, turn their rear ends to oncoming fire so they will ensure a quick death. Fail to take cover (if there is any in this game).

5. Dysfunctional multiplayer mode.

6. Unweildy camera controls

7. Unrealistic effects of weapons, ie: Tiger tanks getting knocked out by T-34s from single frontal shots from 800 meters.

8. Boring, repetetive maps, same old, same old tree lines, few buildings (all the same architecture be it France or Russia), few bushes, and then the horseshoe trenches.

9. No smoke grenades or mortar rounds.

10. Last, but certainly not the least, the lack of infantry entering buildings, that alone should rate this bowel movement a FLUSH!

#2227594 - 06/04/07 07:47 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Chazman1946]  
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FinnN Offline
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Some of these are true: eg multiplayer, no smoke, people taking a peek from trenches, some are subjective: eg controls, some are only partially true: there are mortar rounds, but the teams are off map, some are dubious: you can rack up T34 kills by the dozen in a tiger and some are flat out wrong:

"Complete lack of concealment from trees, shrubs" - not true, grass has no effect the rest do. It needs rebalancing, but it definitely does have an effect. How many times does this need restating?

"knowing where the human controlled troops are at all times, irregardless of terrain obstructions to LOS" not true. The mission designer can script this to be the case when calling up artillery or getting reinforcements to attack you, yes it is very annoying when it happens but it isn't a part of the engine and only a few missions do this.

I guess it's easier to copy and paste the same list again and again than it is to come up with an informed opinion though.

Have fun
Finn

#2227671 - 06/04/07 09:17 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FinnN]  
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RyanE Offline
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Actually, there is some truth to all of these. I find that you can't use actuaol terrain graphics to judge sighting. The "complete lack of concealment" may be an overstatement, but there is almost no way to determine if you can be seen. In real life you can generally tell how well concealed you might be by moving around a patch of woods. In TOW, it seems that the graphics for trees and bushes are really abstractions. Without some other way of telling LOS, it is pretty much guess work.

Most of the list is opinions. I can see why someone would state each of those, based on how the game was originally represented.

Note he didn't mention no building entry or fence/hedge climbing.

#2228269 - 06/05/07 06:00 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FinnN]  
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Chazman1946 Offline
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Arizona
Quote:
"Complete lack of concealment from trees, shrubs" - not true, grass has no effect the rest do. It needs rebalancing, but it definitely does have an effect. How many times does this need restating?


Not true? Perhaps you can tell me how it is that when your troops, lying prone in high grass, are being mowed down by buttoned up tanks on the opposite side of the map, with three tree lines interveining the LOS is realistic??

This goes way beyond rebalancing, I see absolutley no effect on LOS from tree lines or bushes at all!

#2228273 - 06/05/07 06:05 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: RyanE]  
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Chazman1946 Offline
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Arizona
Quote:
Note he didn't mention no building entry or fence/hedge climbing


I listed no building entry in #10, that alone is enough to relagate this game to the discount bin.

#2228526 - 06/05/07 11:09 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Chazman1946]  
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monkeezgob Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chazman1946
Quote:
"Complete lack of concealment from trees, shrubs" - not true, grass has no effect the rest do. It needs rebalancing, but it definitely does have an effect. How many times does this need restating?


Not true? Perhaps you can tell me how it is that when your troops, lying prone in high grass, are being mowed down by buttoned up tanks on the opposite side of the map, with three tree lines interveining the LOS is realistic??

This goes way beyond rebalancing, I see absolutley no effect on LOS from tree lines or bushes at all!


Yup, with Chazman on this one. This was one of the first things that was apparent on playing the demo. That and that fact that enemy tanks were able to spot and destroy, with laser guided precision, artillery I had reversed and parked on the reverse slope of a hill. Realsitic? Hmmmm.

#2228545 - 06/05/07 11:32 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: monkeezgob]  
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Krull Offline
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All hail SBPRO-PE for your tanking simulation needs.

For an FPS i'm still all over RO.


Played on a 50 player server earlier for a coupla hours & creamed them kiddies big time finishing first out of fifty on 3 consecutive maps.

And, yes, there were blatant cheats out there. But so what? I get done by a hax i got half an idea. He does it repeatedly on the drop with a bolt action & i got a fair idea of what's going on.

Does it spoil my enjoyment?

Nah, way to happy cutting swathes through the regular players to care too much when i got haxxed.

Then i got bored & went to the pub & won 9 straight games of pool untill, again, i got bored & left undefeated.

Best you lot watch yersen a week after SB drops through my letter box.


My stools are hot!


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#2228801 - 06/06/07 10:40 AM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: Krull]  
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FinnN Offline
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It does have an affect, and you can sneak around and hide AT guns using it quite well once you figure out how much you need. You can do this from above, enter view is useless for this - funnily enough the best way is to change the maximum camera height and do it from above during setup which results in a view uncannily like Close Combat. That's not to say it's realistic particularly as it's balanced now, but it is there. In the demo there's one mission where the enemy spawns in LOS to you and kills you immediately. I've not found this to be the same in general in the game. I think what's happening is that the enemy spawns and the AI does a single LOS check using just the terrain before all the cover is calculated. In the campaign things either don't spawn in LOS or do so in the open (annoyingly) so the bug doesn't apply. There are problems with the game, but bushes having zero effect isn't one of them. Anyway, I'm getting tired of repeating this so if you don't believe me I'll just leave you to it.

SBPro looks pretty good, and I've considered buying it a few times but modern equipment just doesn't interest me. Although the graphics are a bit dated there's one thing that impresses me from screenshots that I think I'll mention though is the towns. When I look at the distribution of buildings and roads etc it really does look like a real town (not in a photographic sense). Apart from a handful of add-ons for the MS flight sims that combine aerial photos with 3D objects I've not seen this in any other games. This is one area that really does disappoint me in ToW given that it was originally (before BF got involved) marketed as having scenarios based on real locations.

Have fun
Finn

#2228876 - 06/06/07 12:53 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FinnN]  
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monkeezgob Offline
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I agree with you about locations FinnN. Apart from the fact that buildings are of no strategic value in the sim, the landscape of Poland is indistinguishable from the landscape of France, Russia etc. Everywhere looks exactly the same!

#2228979 - 06/06/07 03:04 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: monkeezgob]  
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FinnN Offline
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Actually in bushes next to a building is one of the best places to be in ToW - especially for tank destroyers and AT guns, but I know what you mean. I've been doing quite a bit of reading recently on WW2 infantry tactics and in the type of maps we have in ToW I don't think enterable buildings would make much difference to gameplay if we're talking realism. A much bigger omission though is smoke, in the sorts of terrain seen in ToW smoke was pretty standard. I guess it doesn't sound as dramatic as saying that you can't enter buildings but it's a much bigger hole and goes a long way to explaining why casualties are so high.

I do wish more games had realistic environments though and ToW isn't unique in not having them, height elevations are easy to get ahold of these days - especially if you have the sort of money available that a game will have for development. Period maps and even aerial photographs from WW2 (local.live or google maps for modern) are also not too hard to get from archives and current hardware can certainly handle it as well, so why do we always see 'levelised' maps?

Have fun
Finn

#2229103 - 06/06/07 05:57 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: FinnN]  
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TheHammer Offline
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agreed on the locations...but it is not just height maps/maps of the acutal locations... the buildings are all the same, everywhere. i AM suprised they a map creator (not just editing) method is not part of the package - but i bet folks figure it out eventually... \:\)


Helmut Fritz
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#2229266 - 06/06/07 10:12 PM Re: so what is so bad about it? [Re: TheHammer]  
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Chazman1946 Offline
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Arizona
Quote:
i AM suprised they a map creator (not just editing) method is not part of the package


For a game that was supposedly 5 years in construction, there is about a 100 things that are missing.

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