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#2218056 - 05/23/07 06:00 PM EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP?  
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Bahger Offline
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LA, CA, USA
I've been using the great missions in the SimHQ mission pack to familiarise myself with the game dynamics, playing by myself on a locked server.

So far I've tried EBU Desert Assault and find it manageable with minimal casualties in SP as long as my tactics are sound, which is in itself a tribute to the mission design.

Woodland Assault is different and, as I get up to speed in the game, I'd be curious to know what the veterans think.

- With such a small SpecOps team, does it make sense to split them up?

- Fire discipline/ROE: I've been following Magnum's advice and infiltrating with "Hold Fire/"Danger" orders but the ingress is very exposed and the element of surprise is not all that significant. Should the approach be "see first-shoot first"?

- Is there anything to be gained by leaving the marksman alone on the hilltop?

- How can I access a loadout screen to see which soldier in my team is carrying an AT weapon?

I'm not asking these questions because I'm stumped or looking for a shortcut but all tactical games have their quirks and I'm trying to master this one. I'm finding the northern/seaward axis to be the best direction of approach but it's more difficult than in Desert Assault to get the AI to stay in cover and they get picked off. In general, I find it's important to conduct the assault very slowly and deliberately because, in ArmA in general and in this mission in particular, it's a challenge to see enemy personnel from cover.

I haven't yet succeeded. Maybe the mission is much more manageable in MP, for which it was probably intended. I'd say fifty percent of the time I fail because I make a stupid, impatient mistake and get caught in the open but the other fifty percent of the time failure is the result of the AI getting picked off to an unacceptable level. I've also had a little difficulty with the interface setting the satchel charges stolen from the enemy cache.

It would be interesting to know your thoughts about the playability of this scenario as a SP mission.

...Oh and what do the initials EBU stand for?

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#2218083 - 05/23/07 06:38 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Bahger]  
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Vertigo1 Offline
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it's short for Ebud, the guy who created the custom soldiers and the mission pack.


"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” -Milton Friedman

Quem Deus vult perdere, prius dementat
#2218106 - 05/23/07 06:59 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Vertigo1]  
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Magnum Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Naples, Florida
that is a hard mission with the AI, because there idiots...and you can't see too well either... best thing to do is leave the gunner at hold fire on the hill, when you see a truck pull up the road on the map, order the gunner to target and engage it... that way you can just deal with clearing out the hidden soldiers in the woods and tents... that mission is alot easier with humans.

The desert one is easier, because more open and more able to see the enemy also.

#2218717 - 05/24/07 11:26 AM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Magnum]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Weird, I found this mission quite easy, besides problems with the AI pathfinding when moving down from the hill.

You guys want some spoilers?

#2218892 - 05/24/07 03:23 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Bahger Offline
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Bahger  Offline
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Originally Posted By: RSColonel_131st
You guys want some spoilers?

Why not? Let's call them "tactics"!

It's not that I can't win the mission but I cannot do so without taking unnacceptable losses to my AI squad.

#2218968 - 05/24/07 04:36 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Bahger]  
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ebud Offline
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I'm still having a hard time believing people actually play these missions. I just made them as quick demos for the units instead of having to sandbox them or wait for missions using them. For this mission I wish I had made it somewhere else as the ai can't find a good way down the hill each time. One time is fine, another time it's messed up.

#2219010 - 05/24/07 05:10 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: ebud]  
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kramer Offline
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Ohio
i am not a military tactician but i don't think trying to go down that steep hill is the way to go. it seems like you would be a sitting duck. i always go down and around to the left and then up the road into the enemy camp.

thanks for including these missions to showcase your addon!

#2219016 - 05/24/07 05:14 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: kramer]  
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Magnum Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Naples, Florida
eBud, IMO your missions are FANTASTIC, and hope you do and share more... exactly why you said... simple small unit missions, can boot up and be done with a good mission in 30 to 45 minutes... your missions are worth re-doing... heck I've even imported them into VBS2, working good there also...now if i could just get the VBS2 AAR tool working to watch the replay, hits, and kills. ;\)

#2219039 - 05/24/07 05:31 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Magnum]  
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ebud Offline
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Magnum, I heard those units also work in VBS2 as well. Can't confirm that as I don't have it, but I'll take the person's word on it.

Talking to a retired master gunner co-worker in here this week and listening to his bull stories from Iraq really got me riled up to try and make some more missions as those don't take near as long as addons \:\)

#2219070 - 05/24/07 06:01 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: ebud]  
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Bahger Offline
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Bahger  Offline
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These are great missions. I've designed a lot of published scenarios for STEEL BEASTS and was in the SB2 mission design group and I know how unexpectedly difficult it is to balance the limitations of military authenticity with the desire to entertain when you have an editing tool as powerful as SB's or ArmA's. If it hadn't been for SimHQ, your missions and the little group of Sunday MP gamers I play with, I would have given up on ArmA because if I want Rambo I'll play S.T.A.L.K.E.R.; I only ever fire up a tac-sim for tactical gameplay and the stock missions ain't that.

Your missions are great because they are contained scenarios; you are not inviting the player to be a Lieutenant with a Lt. Col's responsibilities. Desert Assault seems to me exactly the kind of situation a junior officer might face in Iraq, every day. I like the challenge of positioning one of the vehicles in defilade so that the AI gunner can support the advance of the rest of the team with the grenade launcher; it's tough to keep him alive but doable and very satisfying when it works. And Desert Defence is great, too because, while it's not about movement, it's about cover and marksmanship and it's great fun. Woodland Assault is a mission I'm keen to try in MP. I've had no problem getting my team down the slope, and, unlike Kramer, I tend to approach from the northern boundary of the village, having crossed the road. The problem is that the AI formation gets strung out and picked off because the AI defenders "see" them first and I've only been able to win this with heavy casualties and I hate that. Usually the medic wanders off on his own or various members of the team leap to their feet when they should be prone and get shot, etc. etc. This is a reflection of the game's limitations, not your mission design chops.

I'm with Magnum, I like manageable MP missions that can plausibly support small-unit comms and tactics and constant use of the map for SA. I do not really want to recreate APOCALYPSE NOW every time I fire up ArmA; I'm more interested in figuring out how to take a town with a sqaud of two fire-teams. What would be great, though, if you got back into mission design, would be a scenario of this size but with very limited, playable armor or helo support.

What is VBS2?

#2219109 - 05/24/07 06:32 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Bahger]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Sierra Hotel

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Yeah, those massive missions are fine on occasion, but the limitations of the game show up quickly. I prefer a smaller number of friendlies vs a larger number of enemies BUT the enemies have to be spread out. I don't want to sit in one spot and have 40 guys attack me, I'd prefer to face them spread out over the area.



The Jedi Master


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#2220141 - 05/25/07 07:49 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Jedi Master]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Okay, my "tactics" for this mission:

0) Take an AT4 and two M136 rockets for myself.

1) Put the guys in stealth, line, hold fire.

2) Advance to the crest of the hill ahead so we all can look down at the enemy HQ.

3) Spot out the patrols and assign targets to my AI teammates. Everyone gets one enemy, I take one myself.

4) Order fire to be opened, keep assigning targets. After the first few minutes with most enemys dead, you can stand up and unload a M136 at the tent where the main officers are likely to be in.

Time from first shot to dead command post - 3, max. 4 Minutes. Just as it should be.

*******************IMHO, at this point the mission should be "accomplished". It is not quite realistic having to take out every single remaining guard down there when you already flattened what is obviously the main command tent and took out 75% percent of the personal on site. True Spec Ops would "hit and run", and with less than 3 minutes between first shots fired and M136 hitting their CP, the officers would likely be inside and dead. But anyway, read on...

5) My original plan was to rush down the hill afterwards and kill what's left, hijack the truck, run off. But that didn't work since the AI doesn't find down the hill.

6) So instead, I take them down the right side of the hill. I keep in overwatch with two buddys and take out the reinforcement truck as it arrives with a single M136, ideally killing all aboard before getting any return fire (which is a bit gamey since you KNOW what will happen in time - but like I said, at this point I consider the mission over anyway).

7) Moving off the slope right hand of the hill, cross the street and clean up the outpost.

Done.

#2220176 - 05/25/07 08:32 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: ebud]  
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Dozer Offline
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Originally Posted By: ebud
I'm still having a hard time believing people actually play these missions. I just made them as quick demos for the units instead of having to sandbox them or wait for missions using them. For this mission I wish I had made it somewhere else as the ai can't find a good way down the hill each time. One time is fine, another time it's messed up.


Heh. In that case I'd love to see some missions you've deliberately made good! \:D


Dozer
#2220448 - 05/26/07 04:24 AM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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ebud Offline
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ebud  Offline
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Originally Posted By: RSColonel_131st


*******************IMHO, at this point the mission should be "accomplished".



Well, these were just demo missions, and I had to make a few of them. That being the case I didn't spend more than a minimum amount of time on them as again, they were just created so you could play with them the minute you downloaded them rather than make something yourself, or wait for others to make something. Also I was Airforce back in the day so if I were making a "launch and recover and aircraft" mission I might be able to make it realistic, a combat mission? Not likely \:\)
And lastly, my mission making skills are about as minimal as you can get. All of this contributed to the non-realistic, simplistic nature to all of these missions, this one especially. I never even thought to take out everything from the hilltop and leave it at that, nor adding a surprise or two.

If you'd like to edit them, please do, or better yet, make a few to share \:\) I'm glad they still get some play as I assumed the shelf life for this addon would be quite short.

#2220461 - 05/26/07 04:42 AM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: ebud]  
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Wepps Offline
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Beaumont, Texas
Hey, as basic as these missions are, we've really enjoyed them. Some missions are just overly complex... yours do not suffer from that problem.

Sometimes I just want to jump in a Hummer and attack a town full of bad guys. Or defend a city.

Last edited by Wepps; 05/26/07 04:44 AM.
#2220962 - 05/26/07 11:25 PM Re: EBU Woodland Assault: How manageable in SP? [Re: Wepps]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Don't take it as dig, Ebud, I find you did fairly well and I know they were meant as minimum effort just for a quick launch.

I just commented on this to show that tactics can be very different, and cleaning up everthing below shouldn't even be on the guys minds. My first way to look at this mission was "how can I take out as much as possible as quickly as possible and then vanish".


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