personally i really like the codemeter, especially for the additional licenses ability that can be handled via a network. i really dislike having to put the cd/dvd into the drive to run a game.

This company has been outstandingly fair in every way imaginable! They have produced an excellent armor simulation simply all by itself in this class. It is entirely professional. Then after purchasing true to their word they provided me with enough licenses to play across my LAN at a fraction of the cost of the full product. These guys are tops in my book.

The codemeter stick is absolutely not a problem of any kind for me. Running this sim across 3 machines without a hitch. You can almost smell the deisel fuel and perspiration. Talk about the suspension of disbelief WOW! You can have my copy when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Out

I do like how my friend Magnum has shot down the dislike for the dongle as being something only a few negative minded people have a problem with... I have been a big supporter of this sim but hate the dongle. I actually think people who own this sim and support it, for the most part, are simply adopting group think when it comes to the acceptance of the dongle.

Most don't want to be the outcast who gets slammed by the community for not rubbing up against the dongle and sleeping with it next to them on a pillow at night.

The dongle is no better than any other protection scheme. Dongle protections for more popular products have been cracked within days of release.

It adds cost to the sim. I also think it is a protection scheme that was completely unnecessary. How many times have you seen the original SB being shared around the pirate networks?

If SB Pro PE was a more desired product it would have already been cracked. It hasn't been because there is no demand. So, you are protecting the product from the people who would have purchased it anyway. In the end, my biggest problem with the dongle is that I feel the guys I so highly supported when SB was released, made the choice to go with the dongle more so they could raise the price than because they considered it the best protection scheme.

To each it's own, and thats opinions also RB...

And I didn't like how it was all the negative side, and as is my right as well as yours I posted my opinion countering the anti-protection post.

My point is not just about the dongle protection, because I don't like it when It comes to playing on my laptop, but for the desktop, I never see it, so love the protection.

My bigger point is how Ssnake, a member of the Steel Beasts team spends so much time and energy in our forums, answering questions, posting information, and even advising on tech issues... he doesn't have to do that you know... I paid 1500 bucks for VBS2, they don't have a member of there team floating in these forums, answering questions etc ect... you won't see BI Studios, or Atari, or even Battlefront doing what Ssnake does.

I just want to get the good out with the bad...post balance.

I did find your post a little off... why should we have to convince you to keep a game, I know you, you don't want to be convinced you want someone to post something you can counter and argue... don't keep it, or keep it... I, and most everyone else, probably don't care.

Oh, and sorry Paul... this went off topic, and I helped it. Shame on me.

I appreciate everything Ssnake and Al have done for the community, tank sims, and the universe. I just strongly disagree with, and question the logic and business sense of, the dongle. So far (and we have been through this many times), no reason given for the dongle has ever seemed like the best choice.

I also think the community was made smaller because of the high price, caused by the dongle. Yet another reason why I rarely touch the sim any more. It is sad because I so loved the original... and this one is even better.

By the way, I am still confused by your periodic effort to not get when I am kidding. I was not being serious when I asked people to convince me to keep the game. What in my history shows that I take advice?

I put far more effort into the SB community than... well, anyone not currently working on SB Pro PE who posts to this site. I was one of the SB pioneers and a hardcore player. I was involved in some of the first LAN SB games, and then massive online MP games. I helped organize efforts to get people involved, and hosted many online sessions. I worked HARD to get the word out. So, I have as much right to speak my mind about the dongle as anyone. You don't need to protect Ssnake from me. Ssnake should know me well enough to know that even if I complain about the dongle, I would help him hide a body if he asked.

1 simple reason for me: The extra licenses that were available. If I'd had to buy 4 hard copies (Even if they'd been at the same discounted rate) it would be a lot of hassle to what I currently have.

As is, I have sent copies of the sim to multiple people, and with a single USB device I've plugged in and long since forgotten, any combination of 4, here or there, can be fired up.

When the community was being sold on the protection scheme, the dongle was indicated to work in a LAN environment, out of the box, in a way where one copy was needed and no extra licenses. It still does not work that way. Then we were given a limited offer to buy extra licenses. None of this was part of the original plan revealed to the public. This was not how we were sold (though, I never was sold on the idea) on the notion of the dongle.

I think I would have appreciated the dongle more had it worked that way.

The offer was a follow-up to the initial promise. I admit that I initially thought it would have been easier to implement the feature of extra licenses, but there were complications with customer groups other than consumers.
If you feel unfairly treated by the need to pay a measly handling fee of $10.- per extra license, I can't help it.

Logic and business sense of the dongle may become more manifest if you think outside your box of consumer habits, though casual piracy still plays a major role in the whole piracy situation. Underlicensing by .mil customers can be another issue... or late payments for customization developments. In these cases the CodeMeter gives back some power to the developer who is otherwise at the total mercy of the customer who has the money and usually the power too to enforce the governing law of his choice, typically not the court of Santa Monica, CA.
Well, so we hand out temporary licenses during the development phase, and permanent licenses after payment has been made.

Likewise, we could make extra licenses a standard feature. But surely we would calculate how many people would or could use these extra licenses, and calculate the regular license price accordingly. So all those who don't need an extra license are factually subsidizing those who do. Is that fair? It may be justified for mass market products for the sake of brevity in the sale process, but in our case we can do better.


Of all the alternatives - no protection, StarFarce, Steam, or dongle - I think that the CodeMeter is the least of all evils. I know that you'd rather favor Steam, and you totally have the right to do so. But we can't use Steam because at least on account activation it requires an internet connection which is not acceptable for our .mil customers. Besides, I think that Steam is worse for the average customer - there are legal issues, issues of power distribution (Steam subscriber accounts can be terminated at will by the Steam operators, as has been demonstrated in numerous cases, and there's no court of appeal here), issues of privacy, and last but not least security-relevant issues. You may experience Steam as a hassle-free solution - congratulations. Others are not so happy with it.

You should at least be so honest to admit that none of the four solutions is perfect, and that we are ultimately discussing trade-offs among several variables. It is natural that depending on personal preferences different people come to different answers. For us the CodeMeter appeared, by a wide margin, as the least troubling option. Some of you may still remember that the initial reaction to the dongle was extremely reserved if not hostile. After one year of practical experiences I dare to say that the fact that the vast majority has accepted it speaks almost for itself - it is a flexible solution that retains a high degree of freedom and fair use to the customer while not rendering the developer a hapless victim of those who are not honest. I wanted a solution that would offer benefits, not drawbacks, to honest customers.

"I actually think people who own this sim and support it, for the most part, are simply adopting group think when it comes to the acceptance of the dongle."

you REALLY do not know me very well then... that is definitely not me.

"It adds cost to the sim"

at $125 a pop, i doubt the dongle added any significant cost to the game. now, if the game price was only $10, then perhaps...

don't get me wrong, i dislike copy protection mechanisms but see the need for them unfortunately. so if we have to have one, this one is certainly not too shabby. eLicense has worked well for me with the purchase of ToW as well (after the initial teething issues that may or may not have been the copy protection's fault). no cd/dvd needed to run the game.

I don't think there is a perfect solution. I would just side with the cheaper solution, or a solution that does not require the consumer to subsidize the cost of the added protection scheme. Would the product have the same price without Codemeter? I don't think so, but if your plan was to charge $125 for the product whether it had the Codemeter protection or not, then I guess the point is moot. Still, that was not what we were told at the time you were roundabout surveying us for ideas.



Understood. We will probably forever disagree on whether or not limiting demand in an already deeply discriminating market, via higher pricing, was the best idea. Not to mention that I am very bothered by needing to use up one of my USB slots every time I want to play the sim, but that is a personal preference issue. I feel that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits to both developer and consumer, but then I have no access to your financial numbers so I can't accurately evaluate that opinion.

And yes, I realize that MBA in marketing is going to my head.

£60 for the game, and you get a snazzy dongle thrown in for free. How cool (exclusive) is that? And no nazi, sneaking, busted (starfarce) software anywhere on my system...what's wrong with the dongle again?

And a £5 handling charge for extra licences...yus, the SB crew are really cashing in (when usually you have to buy a whole new copy of a game to LAN it...still have double copies of a lot of games on my shelves, because I couldn't install the one on multiple PCs).

I fully support the dongle, and I fully support the price of the game. Game? This is a military-spec simulator...for £60. I've only played (demoed) it for an hour, and it blew me away already just scratching the surface. Looked pukka and played pukka.

Plus Panther is buying it for me (god bless 'im ), so it's all-round goodness so far.

We have fundamentally different approaches here. Of course, if our primary focus was to win as many people as possible to play Steel Beasts Pro PE a "normal" game price would have been the better choice, and I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that it would have made us more money though a disproportionately higher sales volume.
Then again, I'm not sure

• if a limited staff size like ours could actually have handeled a surge of about four times as many orders which would be required to make the math work in our favor, profit-wise
• if it would actually be possible for a company of our size to attract so many visitors and make so many direct sells through its web shop
• if an audience four times as large as the current one would have a similar degree of tolerance towards the rough edges that SB Pro PE still has - and we'd rather have fewer but happy customers than many who are not

Another misconception seems to be that we are making a large part of our turnover and profit from SB Pro PE sales; we're not. They contribute to about 10 to 15% of our annual turnover and are the cause 95% of all support effort. From our perspective making PE available to the general public was more of a service to our most loyal fan base so that the time to wait for an eventual release of SB2 wouldn't be too long.
The Personal Edition's primary function is to be a complement to the classroom version which has a slightly expanded functionality and a different licensing and pricing scheme. The PE is supposed to be a tool that can be given to the individual soldier (typically junior leaders like officer cadets, junior NCOs, leaders from squad to company team level) for homework, individual study, or as one tool among many for distance learning courses, as a preparatory measure before starting career courses, or to serve as an after-course study tool.

One .mil customer ordered an army-wide license to use both the classroom version and the Personal Edition for exactly these areas, others are seriously considering this option.


I don't want to imply that we did you a big favor by releasing the PE at all, and that you owe us a big Thank You. No - 10 to 15% more turnover isn't a negligible quantity, it certainly is a nice extra source of income. But in order to succeed as a GAME in the consumer game marketspace, Steel Beasts must not remain a super-geeky simulation but become more accessible to newcomers and people who pick it up out of casual interest. Those of you who are firm believers in the pure doctrine of "hard simulation" - well, you aren't exactly the targte group for a future SB2 release. After all, you are those who will or already do have a lot of fun with SB Pro PE as it is, despite its rough edges.
I think that at the core Steel Beasts' game mechanics and topic should be attractive to a much larger portion of the market than we could reach with SB1, and that was by the sheer volume of copies sold still our best selling version, by far. Sales were hampered by an almost complete absence of advertisement, the need to change publishers in mid-stream, the bankruptcy of the new publisher some time later and all the other jolly fun that the game industry has to offer to independent developers. Still we made way less money than we do these days, so it clearly is more attractive at this point to cater to the training & simulations market. Let's not forget that what appears as a high price strategy from a consumer's perspective is a very aggressive sell-out price in the other market, we're really shaking the trees there.

So, all in all I think that we found the best compromise, given the constraints under which we're working. Of course, all this doesn't affect you much so you could care less. What counts is, is your gaming experience worth the price and perceived hassle. You have every right to judge the package from oyur subjective point of view, and if it doesn't work out I as the sales guy will have to accede that SB Pro PE apparently wasn't made for you. A pity, all the more because I know that you like the concept of our software, just not the current circumstances. But in the big picture all I could say is that I'd have to ask you to come back when SB2 was released or we'd change the whole business strategy with respect to SB Pro PE.


As far as the price inflation through the CodeMeter is concerned - no, formally it just cuts our profits, the price point was determined before that. Then again, we haven't seen any pirated versions on the net, we haven't experienced a sudden drop in weekly sales numbers that would indicate that someone just released a cracked copy. It is impossible to say how many lost sales we would have experienced without such a dongle, and whether the higher margin per copy would have compensated those losses. Still I think that it was probably worth it. I rather see some extra money in the pockets of Wibu Systems than in those of shady warez dealers.

This game sounded excellent so I thought I'd buy a copy.....but it seems it's only available from the 'eSim games' site. The problem I got was a mass of Javascript errors when I pressed the credit card confirmation button.
Now, have they taken my money or not??.

I thought I'd email them, But....

"If you are inquiring about Steel Beasts Professional, please include your full identification with official postal mailing address. We will process questions about Steel Beasts Professional only from defense agencies and only from nations without U.S. export"

I still would like to buy this, but it would be a lot easier if it was available on Amazon.

Hi Mikew.
I'm sure Ssnake will sort this out for you. I have purchased 2 copies of SBPRO and had no problems whatsoever, probably a glitch somewhere.

Keep the faith, I assure you it's worth it.

If you don't receive a confirmation email with an order number, the payment hasn't reached us. There is a small chance (about one per thousand transactions) that Verisign has approved the payment so it's a "sale" in their logs but the information doesn't get passed on to us. So far however we could always sort it out.
Don't be afraid to contact us by email; the disclaimer you cited applies only to the classroom version of SB Pro, not the Personal Edition.

Hi Panther,

It's thanks to your posts that I've tried to buy it.

Anyway, the problems may be:

The credit card invoice address is to one address in town XXX in the UK,
while the delivery address was to another address in the same town.
The credit card (VISA) expires at the end of May 2007 (too close??)

Anyway, it's irritating to have to enter all this stuff more than one time. I can't remember the last time I had this much trouble buying stuff.

Thanks Ssnake,
I'll try to order again after I've checked this months credit card statement.

I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end. Everybody else seems to think so...

Hi Again Mikew..I understand it must be frustrating for you. It could be that there is a new C/C on it's way to you, therefore not allowing the old one to be processed, that's happened to me before. It could also be the two addresses are not accepted.

I would contact the c/c Company tomorrow and ask if your card has been debited.

I'm sure Ssnake will do all he can to find the problem if indeed there is one.

Thanks Panther, I'm sure I'll get a copy in the end.

It's always frustrating when you have to wait though......