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#2130284 - 02/05/07 06:41 AM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Dusty Rhodes]  
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Phait Offline
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Well I can't find a straight answer...
http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=1363994&postcount=280

in that post there I quoted something that seems to clear it up, but still - I don't know.

Why? Because if it so happens there is work being used without permission, I have a moral issue with that - I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the product/developer.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2130330 - 02/05/07 09:35 AM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Phait]  
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chronoPilot Offline
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As far as LP's legality, they're legit. They might not have been, back when they modified Falcon's EXE and data and redistributed it, but they are now. As for them using others' work, well, other people modified the EXE and data and redistributed it, too. Ultimately, all these changes belong to Atari. So as I understand it, when LP licensed the rights to Falcon, they legally received the right to include other people's edits. Basically, the edits people did are not and were never "their own". They were Atari's. Any concept of a EULA for what amounts to a hack is null and void.

So I don't think LP's using others' work, in the legal sense. Everyone's mods belonged to Atari and LP got the right to continue development and release a product containing those mods.


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#2130335 - 02/05/07 09:47 AM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: chronoPilot]  
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Phait Offline
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When it comes to modding, my background has been mostly in Quake level design. And as far as custom levels/mods for most FPS games, companies have usually been 2 things: indifferent, or fully supportive, releasing SDKs, giving exposure, running contests and even hiring level designers/programmers/etc that all cut their teeth doing mods.

So it's hard for me to grasp this whole it-belongs-to-Atari thing - because the modifications I'm used to, in no way belong to the developers of the game. The mods cannot be sold without a license (which is $$$), but they are legally copyrighted to their respective authors.

I see your point, and it's starting to make bit more sense, but from my background it's just weird.

#2130350 - 02/05/07 10:45 AM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Phait]  
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Raptor One Offline
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Basically... don't bother reading all the BS on these forums. Read threads that are fun. Stay away from the ones where everyone's mad and acting crazy. The Falcon 4 timeline is so murky at this point that you gain nothing by trying to delve into it. You just had to be there. If you weren't, don't worry about it. Play F4AF or whatever flavor you like best and be happy.

Last edited by Raptor One; 02/05/07 10:45 AM.
#2130522 - 02/05/07 04:02 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: chronoPilot]  
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PumpyHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: chronoPilot
Ultimately, all these changes belong to Atari. So as I understand it, when LP licensed the rights to Falcon, they legally received the right to include other people's edits. Basically, the edits people did are not and were never "their own". They were Atari's. Any concept of a EULA for what amounts to a hack is null and void.

Not quite correct ChronoPilot.

Neither LP, nor Atari can legally appropriate work that is not their own. Some of the intellectual property used in Falcon AF was under a EULA expressly forbiding it's use in a commercial venture without approval from the author.

Any changes made, even if illegal, cannot be "taken" by LP nor Atari. They can insist, via legal means, that the changes not be distributed or sold, but they cannot legally assume ownership.

-PumpyHead

#2130523 - 02/05/07 04:10 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: PumpyHead]  
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Bard Offline
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..as much as other people don't have the right to use proprietry file formats that are Falcon's.


What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:

"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson

"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman

NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
#2130564 - 02/05/07 05:03 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Raptor One]  
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Krunk Offline
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Originally Posted By: Raptor One
Huh? Don't start arguing another point with me, bud. Homey don't play that. I said in a previous post that if Atari lawyers can find someone to prosecute, they'd have a case. You don't understand conditional statements? You come along and start on some sanctimonious rant. Your arguments are not legal ones. I simply said that if Atari can find someone to prosecute for an IP violation, their case would likely be heard by a court of law. Why? Why do you think? Don't start with your rationalizations. The unauthorized release of a product based on Atari's IP, Falcon 4, is obvously of questionable legality. I don't care one way or another what happens over this. It's petty drama to me. But I see a lot of player haters coming out of the woodwork here. Remember... this is capitalism at work. If you're not familiar with the concept, try Google for starters.

Please! Talk about a rant. This is almost funny if I didn't think you were serious. FWIW, it ain't going to happen no matter how much ranting you do. Get it?

#2130565 - 02/05/07 05:03 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Bard]  
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PumpyHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bard
..as much as other people don't have the right to use proprietry file formats that are Falcon's.




Indeed, however, some of the items in dispute are not proprietary (i.e. meshes, bitmapping, graphics).

But if I may restate the important point: Even if someone used a proprietary file format to create an original work, that work remains the property of the author. It cannot be legally taken by the proprietor of the file format.

-PumpyHead

Last edited by PumpyHead; 02/05/07 05:06 PM.
#2130573 - 02/05/07 05:11 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: PumpyHead]  
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Dusty Rhodes Offline
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Phait, you will now see the argument that caused all the drama.

Pumpy, you are stating legalities but you are not a judge and not a lawyer, so you are stating opinion, not fact, unless you can specifically quote us case law on the subject.

How can you put a EULA on something that breaks the original EULA of Falcon 4?

Last edited by Dusty Rhodes; 02/05/07 05:12 PM.

Dusty Rhodes

Fight Fair! Fight to have fun! Fight to WIN!

Win 7 Pro, Intel i7 4790K OC'd to 4.6 Gigs, EVGA GTX Titan 6 GB Memory and ASUS GTX Titan 6 GB Memory, 32 Gigs Tri Channel Ballistix RAM, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and HOTAS Cougar, TrackIR 5, Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals
#2130583 - 02/05/07 05:23 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Dusty Rhodes]  
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PumpyHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dusty Rhodes

Pumpy, you are stating legalities but you are not a judge and not a lawyer, so you are stating opinion, not fact, unless you can specifically quote us case law on the subject.

If you prefer to see the specific quotes, I can certainly point you in the right direction, but you are correct in stating that I am not a lawyer.

Quote:
How can you put a EULA on something that breaks the original EULA of Falcon 4?

My work did not break the original EULA; however, for argument's sake let's say "Modder-A" did. Modder-A could put a EULA on the work in question as he is the owner of that particular intellectual property--even if he was using a proprietary file system by "GameCorp." Now if GameCorp, whose EULA was violated, wished to they could file legal proceedings to enjoin Modder-A from selling, packaging, or otherwise distributing Modder-A's work to the public.

GameCorp; however, cannot take Modder-A's work as their own because the copyright remains with Modder-A unless Modder-A sells rights to GameCorp for his work.

-PumpyHead

Last edited by PumpyHead; 02/05/07 05:24 PM.
#2130589 - 02/05/07 05:28 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Dusty Rhodes]  
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chronoPilot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dusty Rhodes
How can you put a EULA on something that breaks the original EULA of Falcon 4?


Like most (dare I say), I'm not a lawyer and have no idea what the heck I'm talking about. Pumpy, the above was what I was trying to say when I surmised that EULAs from mod teams (probably) are null and void.

Phait, I'm not sure why everyone can't follow Quake's example. Modders make money, the game lasts longer, more fans are attracted, and Christmas comes in July. The Wings Over Vietnam, Wings Over Europe, and First Eagles series from Third Wire seems to have gotten it right. There's no infighting, yelling, crying, and there's lots of neat additions from users. Third Wire encourages this.

Atari?? LP??


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#2130597 - 02/05/07 05:46 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: chronoPilot]  
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PumpyHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dusty Rhodes
How can you put a EULA on something that breaks the original EULA of Falcon 4?

To put it simply: In the US, any intellectual property is automatically covered by copyright as long as one can produce evidence of being the creator and not bound by contract to produce the IP for a company or corp. Whether or not one is legally allowed to include a EULA for something that breaks a EULA is a moot point.

Quote:
Phait, I'm not sure why everyone can't follow Quake's example. Modders make money,.... There's no infighting, yelling, crying, and there's lots of neat additions from users. Third Wire encourages this.

Atari?? LP??

IMO, LP is interested in keeping a tight reign on AF modding in order to keep out anything that might impact its multiplayer performance. It is, afterall, what AF is noted for.

-PumpyHead

Last edited by PumpyHead; 02/05/07 05:46 PM.
#2130606 - 02/05/07 06:02 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: PumpyHead]  
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vip Offline
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Or - LP could be afraid of AF mods competing/surpassing their next product.

#2130609 - 02/05/07 06:10 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: vip]  
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T Rex Offline
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Originally Posted By: vip
Or - LP could be afraid of AF mods competing/surpassing their next product.


I think that would be an irrational fear.

Community mods have yet to surpass AF's core strengths.


--------------
Sic semper tyrannosauro.
#2130632 - 02/05/07 06:47 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: T Rex]  
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I kind a thought that Atari owned any and all licensing rights to F4 - so any previous EULA would be irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_4


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#2130655 - 02/05/07 07:22 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: MigBuster]  
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Raptor One Offline
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This is so foolish. All these fake copyright lawyers spewing mumbo jumbo.

NO PERSONAL BASHING!!

Last edited by *Panther*; 02/06/07 03:03 PM.
#2130679 - 02/05/07 08:10 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: PumpyHead]  
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Dusty Rhodes Offline
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I could respond but I am not going down this road anymore.


Dusty Rhodes

Fight Fair! Fight to have fun! Fight to WIN!

Win 7 Pro, Intel i7 4790K OC'd to 4.6 Gigs, EVGA GTX Titan 6 GB Memory and ASUS GTX Titan 6 GB Memory, 32 Gigs Tri Channel Ballistix RAM, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and HOTAS Cougar, TrackIR 5, Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals
#2130695 - 02/05/07 08:25 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Dusty Rhodes]  
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T Rex Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dusty Rhodes
I could respond but I am not going down this dusty road anymore.


Fixed.

;\)

(Sorry, couldn't resist the pun, Dusty.) \:D


--------------
Sic semper tyrannosauro.
#2130742 - 02/05/07 09:54 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Raptor One]  
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PumpyHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Raptor One
This is so foolish. All these fake copyright lawyers spewing mumbo jumbo. Pumpyhead.............so much time worrying about your 3D models. If you can't even afford to protect your own work, you might want to think about improving your day job.

Ah, what fond memories Raptor. I see your posts are still replete with sophistry. ;\) Plato may deny you, but perhaps Quintilian may provide you with a seat.

WRT suits, I'd love to comment, but those pesky NDA's can refrain one from doing so at times.

-Cheers

-PumpyHead

#2130755 - 02/05/07 10:00 PM Re: C3PO: FalconAF and Falcon4 based IP policies [Re: Raptor One]  
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Krunk Offline
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Originally Posted By: Raptor One
This is so foolish. All these fake copyright lawyers spewing mumbo jumbo. Pumpyhead... how's your copyright infringement case against LP going? Don't want to talk about it? Did you ever file suit? What happened? Tell us all... please. If you didn't sue them or you sued them and lost, you're just whining. You say you were wronged. Other people say they were wronged. What are you folks going to do about it? What have you done about it? Nothing or something? If you're too poor to prosecute, maybe you should consider getting a better job instead of spending so much time worrying about your 3D models. If you can't even afford to protect your own work, you might want to think about improving your day job.

Somehow this looks taunting to me. I don't think that's allowed here. Maybe you should tone it down a little?

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