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#2127437 - 02/01/07 06:31 AM Hello Team,  
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I haven't been on this board long, the Jet Thunder board that is. I was just wondering what the team used for research and how closely you are trying to match the flight envelopes, and what they look like now.

Thanks!

oscar


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
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#2127450 - 02/01/07 07:32 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
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Hi oscar,

We're using the Flight Manuals for the simulated aircraft. Chris Kasie is kindly helping with first generation Harrier performance charts directly scanned from declassified official documentation. IvanK is an ex-Mirage pilot and will help us tune the flight envelope of the only supersonic jet in our line-up. So far so good, the only flyable plane missing data now is the Pucara (official data seems elusive, only available in Argentina).

At the moment the flight envelopes are not tuned yet and are heavily enhanced for debug purposes - i.e. planes turn faster than real ones, bleed less speed etc so we can point them quickly to targets and fire to see effects of our weapons and so on - but this will change of course, as many of our contributors and fans are ex-pilots of these planes and remember very well how they handle. ;\)


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#2127475 - 02/01/07 08:28 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Well that's so refreshing to hear! I'm glad you have the help you need for tuning the aircraft right. That's good news to hear and I really can't wait to try it when it comes out.

Will Jet Thunder be released by a distributor in the USA?
Have you thought about what's coming after Jet Thunder?


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2127476 - 02/01/07 08:28 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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double post.

Last edited by exhausted; 02/01/07 08:36 AM.

Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2131108 - 02/06/07 09:23 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
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Quote:
Will Jet Thunder be released by a distributor in the USA?
Have you thought about what's coming after Jet Thunder?


Indeed, we're negociating with distributors that cover USA as well. Big market, with McDonnel Douglas A-4 Skyhawk going in the cover of the USA retail release. ;\)

After Jet Thunder: Falklands/Malvinas, we tought about other 2 scenarios never covered in flightsims with sort of balanced air combat activities going on: Indo-Pakistani wars, and Arab-Israeli wars. Last one specially interesting for reuse of some plane assets (Skyhawk, Mirage, Yom Kippur, Six Days, Attrition).

But we're not sure. Unlike South Atlantic 1982, these scenarios are still polemical and sensitive topics, specially Arab-Israeli historic.
Although I know EA/Jane's released a game on this subject, Jane's IAF.


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#2131696 - 02/06/07 11:43 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Or you could do a hipotetical Beagle conflict whent HOT, and have Argentina and Chile duke it out. Veri simmilar hardware involved so it would be quite even ;). And you can make it dynamic and take no side, hehehehe.

But count me in for any of teh other scenarios as well ;).


Fighter pilots make movies, Attack Pilots make history.
#2132160 - 02/07/07 12:59 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Baco]  
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Arab Israeli is the way to go. Its the area I enjoy fighting in the most with SFP1. A dedicated game for the arena would rock! Please dont go sor some obscure bush war most of the world couldnt give a damn about do something high profile. Vietnams done by WOV and sfp1.... few other areas that will catch the imagination.


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#2132168 - 02/07/07 01:15 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Quote:
After Jet Thunder: Falklands/Malvinas, we tought about other 2 scenarios never covered in flightsims with sort of balanced air combat activities going on: Indo-Pakistani wars, and Arab-Israeli wars


WOW WOW!! Arab-Israeli wars!! That's music to my ears ! Six days war and Yom Kippur war are really formidable subjects for a flight combat simulator. Particularly Yom Kippur I think.

#2132490 - 02/07/07 08:33 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: vince-16]  
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Fantastic news. What's the ETA for release? and Media (DVD/etc..)? What are some of the Net connectivity tools planned?

#2132526 - 02/07/07 09:14 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Originally Posted By: Dante-JT
So far so good, the only flyable plane missing data now is the Pucara (official data seems elusive, only available in Argentina).

Dante, if you need to contact someone with fliying experience in Pucará, at the ECV 56 we can get you in contact with one or two persons. Just say the word

#2132541 - 02/07/07 09:42 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: ECV56_PolTen]  
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Like Pablo Said: just ask and we can contact you with people that know everything there is to know about the plane and weapons systems... And hands on experience.


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#2132706 - 02/08/07 01:08 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
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It's good news that the team is looking at ideas for after Jet Thunder is released.

I disagree about going with the Arab/Israeli Wars. Though they do use some of the same aircraft that Jet Thunder will utilize, I don't feel that the theater is that interesting enough. Also, it would be pretty one sided. There is still a lot of classified information on the subject, and I don't think that the Arab Israeli theater could be faithfully recreated. Though, I do feel that pushing for a politically sensative topic is a great idea, it is a big responsibility creating it historically.

If I were in charge of the next direction, I would definately say that the terrible wars between India and Pakistan would be infinately more playable. This theater also uses some planes that were used in the Falkands, - the Canberra.

Also used were the:
F-86, armed with Sidewinders
F-104A, with and without the gun. Scored the first kills for the F-104 on Indian Canberras
MiG-21F - proved to be a better fighter then the F-104
MiG-19
Hunter


There were surely more, but this really is an interesting theater.

I have an idea if you want to do someting TRUELY ambitious...

see the next post.


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2132719 - 02/08/07 01:25 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
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The basis was to be an F-4 sim and cover all theaters the plane was based. It was to have historical campaigns in Israel, Vietnam, and Persian Gulf. But it is IMPERATIVE to model the systems of the F-4 correctly! Especially the rear cockpit.

The Phantom was a widely exported aircraft, and it was a multirole plane. I figure a sim that covers a wide range of types, and obscure models, would be educational, and could change the gaming industry. It could give the title 'simulator' it's name back. There is a vacuum in the industry and this could fill it well.

There are a couple ways at approaching this as far as multiplayer is concerned. One would be to make it a joint "F-4 Phantom II vs MiG-21" simulator where you model 5-6 important F-4 models, and 5-6 important MiG-21 models. That would cover East and West, and that could work for world release.

Think Korea, Vietnam, Iran vs Iraq, Persian Gulf, Europe, and Arab/Israel - both planes have those theaters in common. With variants of the MiG-21 and F-4, one could play a wide variety of strike, fighter, and recon missions.

Then could elaborate. The MiG-21 was used by India in a theater that the F-4 wasn't in, but you could still cover it.


The other way to model multiplayer would be to add a few novelty planes in addition to the F-4. Add planes like the F-8 Crusader, F-105 Thunderchief, A-4 Skyhawk, Mirage III, MiG-17, MiG-21F, PF, M, MF, and MiG-23. That way you could still cover a lot of theaters with variety.


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2132815 - 02/08/07 04:04 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
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exhausted: indeed, for arab-israeli wars or anything middle-east 1969-upwards, the Phantom should be the center of the simulation - it's a very complex aircraft, I have a lot of documentation about it and it'd deserve a study sim of its own. If I remember well, there was a cancellated Phantom sim in the late 90/early 2000s, from some big american developer, I got a printed magazine of the time with cockpit photos, screenshots and stuff, I think it got the working title "MiG Killer", had rear cockpit modeling and so on.

As you mention, Indo-Pak wars seemed more balanced indeed. The arab-israeli ones could end very one-sided (check Janes IAF). This isn't decided yet, too early as JT:F/M isn't even fully alpha stage yet, it's just that publishers and other funding partners demands a 5-years product strategy/roadmap in our business plan, and to keep tradition, we filled the gaps with suggestive historic flight sims in the jet age that never have been done before.

One plane surely will have many scenarios is the MiG-21. I already got several drawings and plans and we may be doing its 3D model and cockpit in parallel (models F, PF, MF), low priority in the background, but practically any historical scenario in the jet age after Korea had it playing a role.

Pablo and Baco: for sure, we need desperately the Pucara flight manual or any other documentation, all we have is a lot of photos I took of the cockpit (from Malvinas museum in Oliva) and superficial web data. The flight manuals for the other planes we already have, even Super Etendard (in french, but works).


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#2132851 - 02/08/07 05:59 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Thanks for the quick reply Dante-JT.

I think that leading the way with an F-4 study sim would revitalize flight simming - possibly to where it was in the mid-1990s. The way I see it, a study sim of the F-4 should have a really obnoxious name that declares of the plane, "it was badass, you know it and your mom knows it, scumbag!"

I would suggest, "F-4 Phantom II - Thunderous Killer In The Sky."
That way it's abstract, groundbreaking, and eye catching.

With the Jet Thunder team working on a sim, and addons (like theaters), and Oleg doing World War II, it could give the industry a kick.

Have you thought about a simple console version of Jet Thunder for revenue?


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2132912 - 02/08/07 09:19 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Originally Posted By: Dante-JT
After Jet Thunder: Falklands/Malvinas, we tought about other 2 scenarios never covered in flightsims with sort of balanced air combat activities going on: Indo-Pakistani wars, and Arab-Israeli wars. Last one specially interesting for reuse of some plane assets (Skyhawk, Mirage, Yom Kippur, Six Days, Attrition).


Hmm, here's something that has been done only once and a very long time ago - an F-14 simulation (F-14 Fleet Defender by Microprose). But you can extend it with a Phantom or F/A-18, depending on a timeframe (or A-6, A-7 even). There would be some work with the F-14 avionics (the former sim did it very nice), but if you select an earlier timeframe (end of 70s/early 80s) and ditch the F/A-18, F-4, A-6 and A-7s' avionics shouldn't be too complicated to implement.

And since it's carrier ops, you can put it in almost any scenario (North Cape, Korea, East Med, etc.). My favourite would be a North Cape scenario with Soviets attacking Norway. That would make for some awesome low-level strike missions with A-6s and A-7s, while the Tomcats and Phantoms could duel it out with MiG-21s, 23s and 25s and intercept Backfires and Fencers. Then it can be extended to GIUK line scenario with Norway occupied so you might defend United Kingdom from cruise missiles and bombers. So Tornado and Jaguars could also be added (they could fly North Cape missions from Norway, also).
If you would also simulate MiG-21 and MiG-23, that would just be an icing on the cake. And there are no political connotations \:\)

Last edited by ijozic; 02/08/07 09:41 AM.

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#2133259 - 02/08/07 06:03 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: ijozic]  
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Indo-Pak does sound very interesting.

Dare I say the last "MiG Alley" type of engagement?

There's a MiG-19 or 21 (I think it's a 19 but I can't tell from the distance/Tail end) not far from my house. I may be able to get some close photos if I ask.

I can't go full tilt on it, but if you're in a pinch and need something, give me a holler. I'll see what I can do.

#2134665 - 02/10/07 01:54 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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I have to disagree about the fact too much data would be classified about arab-israeli wars. Sufficient data for a flight sim is available for Six days war and Yom Kippur.
As for Yom Kippur one of the extremely interesting aspect is that you have all aspects of modern air combat. This was a very complete air war, I think the most interesting air war since WWII and it's fully deserve a flight sim. I also don't see why it would be too one-sided except the fact that the air war israeli side was more interesting. Six days war would certainly be boring \:D but certainly not Yom Kippur!

As for F4 vs Mig 21 SFP1 is very good. I play it that way, with an excellent Mig 21 thanks to the community of moders. I hope more ambition would be put in a Jet Thunder following title.

Also you could make excellent use of the Dagger and Mirage III in a Yom Kippur war.

Also this is certainly not the more important, but commercialy speaking there's no comparison between Arab-israeli wars and India-Pakistan. Arab-Israel sells.

Last edited by vince-16; 02/10/07 01:57 PM.
#2134742 - 02/10/07 04:05 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: vince-16]  
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exhausted: yes, publishers seem obsessed with console variants these days and always ask if a <[insert ur favorite modern console here]> version is possible. We could use our tech or expertise and do a new game to please them if funding in advance is provided; we can't just use South Atlantic Conflict theme in console I think, because these console flight games are about your super plane firing 40+ missiles and shooting wave after wave of enemy cannon-fodder planes and other assets \:\) could be a bit of a disrespect to families and relatives of the vets of this conflict which is only 25 years old today, IMHO.

ijozic: we know that a quality study sim of the F-14 would sell very well today. Fleet Defender by Microprose is too aged now. The Lybia campaign and Operation El Dorado Canyon will be a must
(a sim capable of handling the F-14 could also handle the F-111 pretty well I think).

Uther: Saratoga Springs NY, I think it's a MiG-21 at the Empire State Aerosciences Museum according to google. There's an F-14 there as well apparently.

vince-16: there's an interesting bit of trivia regarding the Daggers in Yom Kippur: some of them (called "Nesher" in Israel), with many air-to-air victories over arab MiGs, were later sold to argentina and fought the Sea Harriers over Falklands. ;\) (well, dashed away from them after bombing frigates and destroyers at San Carlos waters).


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#2135754 - 02/11/07 11:36 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Why do all recent combat flight sims seem to be going back in time?

When will we see modelling of the latest F22 fighter, the Eurofighter, the Gripen,SU-35,Joint Strike Fighter etc?

All the Next Gen aircraft that are out there and flying today seem to be left to modders to recreate after the sim is released.

I'm just a bit tired of the old 1970s planes. Is there a reason that developers are shying away from the latest and greatest fighters of our present time?

Last edited by Gel214th; 02/11/07 11:41 PM.

-Gel214th
#2135818 - 02/12/07 01:14 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Gel214th]  
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They're flying, but even planes as old as the F/A-18C have a lot of classified information on their systems.


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#2135824 - 02/12/07 01:22 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Gel214th]  
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Originally Posted By: Gel214th
Why do all recent combat flight sims seem to be going back in time?
When will we see modelling of the latest F22 fighter, the Eurofighter, the Gripen,SU-35,Joint Strike Fighter etc?
All the Next Gen aircraft that are out there and flying today seem to be left to modders to recreate after the sim is released.
I'm just a bit tired of the old 1970s planes. Is there a reason that developers are shying away from the latest and greatest fighters of our present time?


Yup, a couple of reasons actually. First, Lockheed-Martin wants a large sum to license the use of their latest jet fighters. The same with all other high profile brand new jet fighters you mentionated. They also don't want to see their product (the jet) being damaged in a game or used in a war scenario with political implications, or any war scenario at all in some cases. The same legal issues happen with some racing games featuring high profile car brands that just don't show any visible damage even hitting a wall straight at 200MPH...

Other reason is the classified systems and flight data, it'll not be a simulation, it'll be a lot of wild guesses. \:\)

Well the first reason is the biggest one, we simply don't have the budget to buy the license and can't risk doing it anyway and being sued later by some heavyweight military contractor. A development company is a whole different ball game from a modder doing his F22 addon on his own. But if suitable funding appears for that we'll be pleased to use our tech to simulate any high profile modern jet fighter (a Rafale would be interesting, carrier ops and stuff \:\)


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#2135937 - 02/12/07 05:32 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Originally Posted By: Dante-JT
Originally Posted By: Gel214th
Why do all recent combat flight sims seem to be going back in time?
When will we see modelling of the latest F22 fighter, the Eurofighter, the Gripen,SU-35,Joint Strike Fighter etc?
All the Next Gen aircraft that are out there and flying today seem to be left to modders to recreate after the sim is released.
I'm just a bit tired of the old 1970s planes. Is there a reason that developers are shying away from the latest and greatest fighters of our present time?


Yup, a couple of reasons actually. First, Lockheed-Martin wants a large sum to license the use of their latest jet fighters. The same with all other high profile brand new jet fighters you mentionated. They also don't want to see their product (the jet) being damaged in a game or used in a war scenario with political implications, or any war scenario at all in some cases. The same legal issues happen with some racing games featuring high profile car brands that just don't show any visible damage even hitting a wall straight at 200MPH...

Other reason is the classified systems and flight data, it'll not be a simulation, it'll be a lot of wild guesses. \:\)


On the first reason I have this to say:

Once it becomes government property, and it's construction and design is paid for by tax dollars, they have made their money and have no reason to further control how it is exploited. They are joining the MPAA and RIAA in becoming the biggest punk-a$$ benifitors of digital mediums. Just a bunch of whining punks who have a knack for designing combat birds.

The other thing I would have to say is that in 20 years we should really take advantage of the fascinating technology which will be declassified about contemporary planes, but now we should take look back in history and make sure we don't miss out on the planes which have features and functions that are still new to us.

Take Falcon for example: has anyone really 'mastered' that sim? When I started playing it I was blown away at the suite that the pilots have at their disposal. There are many tens of planes out there that have something interesting about them, and now we can take advantage of the full scope that is now public knowledge.


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#2136071 - 02/12/07 12:43 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Well that is just horrible.

They want to charge licensing fees for the plane? That's totally ridiculous. \:\(

The Japanese seem to get around it though. There are several games, such as Over-G fighters released with almost every single modern aircraft you can think of. F22,SU35 you name it. They haven't gotten sued, and the circumstances are all sketchy in that game, it's an unrealistic scenario.

I just feel like every single game that comes out is something that's been done before. The WWII thing is getting sickening, actually. Every FPS is a WWII. Every RTS is a WWII. Most of the latest combat flight sims...are WWII or before. I'm really longing for a part II to the DID line of sims ^_^.

I would have never thought the problem was licensing. I guess no one would want to bring out a game called the F39 Fighter with a slightly altered 3D model?

As for 'simulation' vs wild guesses, I'm from the Fun camp, and I think that the game could be fairly realistic with regard to physics modelling, missiles,weather effects etc. with these aircraft. Sure there would be some artistic liberties to fill in gaps, but I don't think it would detract from enjoyment too much.

Oh well, with the licensing issue it's an academic discussion anyway.
\:\)

Last edited by Gel214th; 02/12/07 12:45 PM.

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#2136349 - 02/12/07 07:03 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Gel214th]  
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moving around europe...
actually, if you don't use the companies' names, they can't win against you... but they can sue you until you have no more money left to defend yourself


what is more, as said by dante, nobody that can talk about it has any relevant data on "how it fonctions".. and those who do have that data can't talk about it ;\)


considering the rafale, the data will probably remain classified for decades (today, the mirage III data is still classified in france).

so, basically, making a real sim out of these planes is pretty much impossible right now

#2136413 - 02/12/07 09:00 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Gel214th]  
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Hi JT team,

I don't pop in here much, but I just wanted to let you know how wonderful it is to read about developer interest in an F-4 or F-14 sim. A study sim of either of those planes would be absolutely fantastic.

#2136492 - 02/12/07 10:57 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Joe]  
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Well Go ask Ubisoft about beig sued...Grumman Sued them badlly. for instance...

But Oh yeah I would kill for the best aproximation of a Raffale, a la F/A-18 witch evereybody knows is not even close to the real thing but the cockpick workload sure feels real. And its really interesting.


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#2136656 - 02/13/07 03:57 AM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Baco]  
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Grumman targeted Oleg. Oleg didn't know US law so he acted quickly out of fear. He signed a contractual agreement and was commited. He didn't call them on their bluff and Ubisoft took the pay off money out of Oleg's profit.


Words, such as liberal and liberty, all trace their history to the Latin liber, which means "free".
#2138126 - 02/14/07 09:51 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: Gel214th]  
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Originally Posted By: Gel214th
Well that is just horrible.

They want to charge licensing fees for the plane? That's totally ridiculous. \:\(


It has achieved the status not only of court cases, but also legislation. I guess the computer industry is a little behind the curve on this one, but the argument over the creation of models for the old fashioned 3D glue-and-plastic industry has been ongoing for a couple of years now. It's why it took so long for any models of the Stryker to be made, for example.

There have been two different issues here, one is between entirely privately-owned concepts such as "Union Pacific Railroad boxcar", and the other being that of the tax-payer-funded things like the M1026 Stryker ICV or F-22 Raptor. I'm not sure of the current status of licensing requirements for the private items like railroads, but HR607 is currently in the US Congress submitted by Congressman Andrews.
[url]http://www.hmahobby.com/pdfs/Military-Toy-Replica-Act.pdf[/url]

I -think- computer simulations should be covered by the text as well, though if a company wants to write in, it might be worth a shot.

NTM


Driver, Tracks, Troops...Drive and adjust!
#2186260 - 04/18/07 12:25 PM Re: Hello Team, [Re: exhausted]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,838
ghostrider883 Offline
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ghostrider883  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,838
Mangalore, KA, India
Originally Posted By: exhausted
Also used were the:
F-86, armed with Sidewinders
F-104A, with and without the gun. Scored the first kills for the F-104 on Indian Canberras
MiG-21F - proved to be a better fighter then the F-104
MiG-19
Hunter


It was the MiG-21FL that proved to be a fighter than the F-104, not the F. Theoritically, the MiG-21F was much more maneuverable than the F-104A, but in 1965 the lone MiG-21F/PF sqdn was not fully operational and played a minor role in the war. The MiG-21F never encountered the F-104 in combat( 1965) ,except *probably* once.
BY 1967 , the F & PF versions were retired and replaced by the FL version, which ended up scoring kills on PAF F-6s and PAF/Jordanian F-104s in the 1971 war.

1965:
India
IAF: Vampire FB.52, Ouragan, Mystere IVA,Hunter F.Mk.56/T.66, Gnat F.Mk.1, Canberra B(I)58/PR.57, T.Mk.54, MiG-21F(Type 74), MiG-21PF(Type 76)
IN: Hawker Sea Hawk FGA.6, Alize (from landbases)
PAF: F-86F Sabre(AIM-9 capable airframes were small),F-104A/B(all PAF F-104As had an internal gun), B-57B, RB-57F

1971
IAF : add Type S-22 Fitter(Su-7BMK), Hunter F.Mk.56A, MiG-21FL(Type 77), HF-24, Canberra B.66/B(I)12
IN: Hawker Sea Hawk FGA.6/Mk.100/Mk.101, Alize (from lNS Vikrant in Eastern Theater)
PAF: F-6A, Canadair Sabre Mk.6, Mirage IIIEP/RP, F-104As from 9 sqn RJAF, possibly 3 F-5As from Libyan AF

one interesting aspect of the wars was the use of An-12s by the IAF and C-130s by the PAF in carpet bombing role.
From the naval point of view,in 1971, PNS Ghazi was the first submarine to be sunk since WWII, and INS Khukri was the India's first warship loss at sea. Missiles were unleashed by Indian Navy OSA class missile boats and sunk two PN Warships(and a merchant ship, MV Venus Challenger carrying weapons to Pakistan) and set the Karachi harbour ablaze.


When you go Home, tell them of us,and say, for your tommorrow we gave our today.

---In memory of the gallant soldiers who gave up their lives, to recapture Indian territory occupied illegally in Kashmir.
THE KARGIL MEMORIAL - OPERATION VIJAY
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