S! - I read your post on netwings with a little trepidation. Please take note of my plea in the title, and keep Phases 2 and 3 available to the many of us who really appreciate what you and the team have done here.
I will most readily pay for further phases, because I understand that what you will be charging will be to cover costs etc, and not to make a big fat profit- No right thinking simmer is of that opinion about you and your team.
I mean, it is obvious that you and your team have laid out quite a bit of money to get this sim to us - the download speeds of the patches is one example - and it is only fair that if you continue to give us service ( which you so promptly and admirably do) ,that you should not be out of pocket.
And I think there is too much politeness shown to the ones saying you shouldn't charge. I cannot believe that they are not aware that you have laid out good money etc, so their attitude can only mean that they are miserly so and soes, who want to grab , grab and then grab even more.
And I don't take any argument about -" But I can't afford it , so you are depriving me ..etc etc"
If they can afford the system to play it, they can go without a few pints or whatever to pay for your work.
You have shown what quality is -
If they don't want to pay, then don't play!

I can understand how the posts of the moaners can get you down, and start a feeling of "Up 'em - We'll not bother then ", but I'm sure I speak for many others as well as me, when I ask you not to pull the plug, but please let us have the definitive WW1 sim experience that the complete OFF will be.

cheers

A grateful flight simmer

P.S. When the SimHQ management write "the add on everyone is talking about " in one of their general pages, you can bet you've well and truly made a hit.

What post?

OFF is going strong as ever it is just no longer freeware?
It is in our blood.

WM

Eloquently put CAS141.
Like you say, there are some people who seem to think the world owes them a living.
The people who start talking about "Well, if we pay for it, it should be such 'n' such" should appreciate that they are not buying an overpriced Microsoft Title, but merely helping to cover the costs of the finest piece of WW1 flightsim software EVER made...Period!! (please dont hit me with the RB3D and WOW...cos, they dont even come close!)

If they are too tight to pay out a few Bob, they should stick with phase 1 and keep their traps shut!
I only hope there are enough of us decent, grateful and appreciative simmers, to counteract the one or two a$$holes!......And that the guys continue, and make phase 2 & 3 a success!

It would be a total travesty, if WM, Polovski and the rest of the team, were made to feel so fed up, that they lost interest in the project, due to a handful of smegheads!

Sorry, i posted the above, before WM had replied!

Sorry WM - I should have identified it- You post so many re OFF, of course i should have realized
Glad to read the re- assurance here.

This was the post.
http://forums.netwings.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3333&page=3&pp=10
Netwings Forums - Next phase of OFF to be payware


cheers

Yes O.K. - the decision was quite simply : payware or privateware as opposed to freeware that was the decision I had to make - we decided payware at a nominal cost.

HTH

WM

Personally I think the OFF team should have got a commercial publisher and enjoyed at least some financial payback for their massive efforts. That would probably have meant holding off release till phase 2 to have a more rounded product; but it would have been one of the best and most comprehensive commercial add-ons released for any flightsim, ever, and I own most of them.

I find it rather sad that some people seem quite unable to give due credit for, or even to comprehend, the levels of effort that must have gone into OFF already, you only have to look at what you get with the average payware add-on for IL2, CFS2 or CFS3, to see how much more has gone into OFF.

I agree heartily with CAS141, most of the moaning about paying a nominal fee adds a new depth to the terms "pathetic" and "ingratitude". If somebody wants to give their work away, good show, but if they want to sell it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, either. OFF is still gonna be next-to-free.

I still think they should go commercial, and to h*** with the whining. They're certainly entitled to do so, and anyone with an interest in WW1 would be mad or warped to turn their noses up - not "principled" - I can think of several words for expecting something for nothing, and "principled" is not one of them.

I have no problems at all with the approach the OFF/OBD people are taking, and I think I understand why it's necessary.

But it's also important to understand why people do get upset. The culture of amateurism is very deeply and sincerely entrenched in the sim community. And it's nothing whatever to do with 'wanting something for nothing'. Some of its strongest defenders are also producers of good add-on stuff.

Both sides should stop the slagging-off, in my view. And try to listen to the other.

And I'm sure OFF doesn't need a cheer-squad...

I'm going to say some things here publically, that I've advised in private......

These opinions are based on contingencies, and potential future occurances......

As I see it (again from my personal prespective), OFF has a limited window of opportunity here as a pay-to-play product......there is serious retail competition on the way in the form of Gennadich Team's WWI project, and Third Wire's "lite" WWI sim.

If OFF is a "mod" (an add-on), and is being developed as such, and on the time-table as allowed in one's spare after-work time, then that's what it is. If it is a "product" that is meant to penetrate a market, and thereby is meant to compete against other retail offerings, then in that sense it has to be viewed from a different perspective.

Of course OFF can continue as a mod add-on to CFS3 infinitum as long as people are interested in adding to it and in playing it (and in sustaining the cost to offer it).....FS-WWI is still on-going, and Richthofen's Skies is still on-going because the hobbyist involved love to do what they do (it's what modders do afterall). OFF also has no real competitor right now, as a potential "pay-to-play" offering....that is for now.

From my perspective OFF is of very high caliber, and has good future potential as a mod, or more targeted potential as a product when considering there may be better, purpose-built WWI retail products coming to market in the not too distant future.

Games are tools.....some new tools work better, some old tools we get so familiar with that we regret trying something different, but then......

Hey, cheering on the hard work of peers is wonderful....I've got hundreds of hours tied up in skinning for OFF and enjoy when people like what I do, but then I'm also a WWI air combat enthusiast, and that's my real interest in this hobby.....the history, and the ability to get immersed in gaming the period.

So now to reinforce my original take on things here......

OFF has done so much to present WWI with a new degree of immersive gameplay (it's the best WWI sim going), but is it a "mod" or a "product"?

If it's to be view in the future as product offering, then the guys need to think of it as such, and then there is potential and probably heavy competition on the way (and that's a good thing...for us WWI gamers)! So if OFF in it's future form is meant to compete in a market, then how long can it do so effectively (it is a CFS3 add-on....two "products" are need to play afterall)?

I see a window of opportunity existing for OFF as a product......and from a marketing perspective.

Again, all my above opinions are based on contingencies, and potential future occurances......

Take this for what it's worth, but do consider it for it's possibilities.

I think FlyXWire has given a far more accurate review of OFF than I have heard elsewhere.

I believe that phases 2 & 3 are not about making a profit (as a full software 'sim' would in a retail enviroment) but rather a pay for the admin, cost of production of DVD's and postage.

Not for profit, but certainly not at the expense of the developers!...That seems more than fair to me.

OFF has already seized a window of opportunity. And since it is not a commercial product, and since the next phases will be offered at a 'recouping expenses' price, it is likely that an OFF following will make that recouping possible, independent of the big new commercial products on the horizon.

I think anybody who has gotten into OFF (tried it and liked it) will pay a few bucks to "upgrade" it, no matter if other products come along.

Of course I am writing this from the perspective of one who still occasionally plays CFS1, CFS2 and the original ("stock") IL-2.

This then is the point, and thanks for making it guys!

I believe when money is mentioned all sorts of ideas about "for profit" schemes come to mind, but I don't think that's the immediate intention of the OFF team, instead it's merely a means of 'recouping expenses' for hosting the mod's website, and such.

To this degree the add-on remains a mod, and should be thought of as such, but something for which the community helps support the cost of maintaining its availabilty (and growth) into the future.......for a nominal fee.......

Exactly Right mate!

On the contrary, devs often benefit from encouragement. It's a bad job when one can't do that without being labelled a cheer-leader.

Any modder is entitled to do with their work as they see fit, give away or sell, as their own beliefs or conscience dictate.

They've rather less business "getting upset" about people taking a different view from their own, re their own work, and one the're perfectly entitled to take.

Let them defend their own approach, not "get upset" about others. Especially those who are "getting upset" and who don't contribute anything themselves, but are quite happy to grab the work of others while "getting upset".

IvorH...Good points there m8!

People paid for Full Canvas Jacket. They pay for any number of FS2004 add-ons (and certain IL2 add-ons). Why shouldn't they pay for OFF Phase 2, especially after seeing the outstanding quality of the free Phase 1 effort? Expecting people to work on your behalf for nothing in return -- well, the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution abolished that.