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#2093611 - 12/07/06 07:11 PM Using Sparrows against fighters  
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PanzerMeyer Offline
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I've noticed that roughly 50% of Aim-7's that I fire against Russian jets miss their target. Would this be considered typical? I usually wait to fire until I have a solid radar lock and I'm within 15 miles of the target. I wonder if the Sparrow just has a hard time hitting small maneuverable targets since they tend to always hit bombers and other large aircraft.


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#2093612 - 12/07/06 10:10 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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AI beams the missile by turning and flying perpendiculary to missile flight. In this case, and especially if you engage the target from above against the ground, the radar sensor has problems recognizing the target and might miss. IR missile is better then. Fire it while close to the Rtr range, when target hardly escapes. Do not forget to keep the target in the radar view all the time till impact.

True is, when firing AIM-7 at BVR head-on at the Rtr limit, till the impact occures you are already in WVR and the fun starts ;\)


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#2093613 - 12/08/06 01:09 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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I B Spectre Offline
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IIRC, Sparrows only had about a 16% hit rate during the Vietnam war. It was standard procedure to launch in pairs, the idea being the time delay to complete the launch sequence allowed the second AIM-7 less flight-to-target time and a greater likelihood of intercept,as jurinko said, WVR by then.

#2093614 - 12/08/06 02:42 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Vietnam war isn't particularely relevant to the AIM-7MF, which is -quite- far from the Vietnam era missile ... it is a completely different beast - highly reliable and dangerous.

The replacement of its con-scan seeker with a monopulse seeker did -much- to alleviate ECm and countermeasure problems, as well as clutter issues.

This stuff isn't modelled all too well in LO yet though \:\)


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#2093615 - 12/08/06 03:05 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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IRL when people talk BVR missiles and radar you often hear about "look-down shoot-down" performance. In lockon your better off with a "look-up shoot-up" profile.

It's like the ability of dense air to degrade missile performance and range is over-modeled and the ability of altitude and airspeed to improve missile performance and range is under-modeled. I find my pK is much better when I'm a few thousand feet lower than my target.

Oh and the AI cheats. They can pull a perfect beam every time, and ALWAYS know EXACTLY where you and the missile are.


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#2093616 - 12/08/06 04:05 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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My version ist to lock on and beeing shoot down... damn don`t know what to do against those western missiles!!! Even Aim9`s shoot me down from traight ahead..


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#2093617 - 12/08/06 05:04 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Western missiles are the weakest in the game right now IMHO. What you need to do is exploit the range of some of the Russian missiles (r27ER and EM mainly) to get your opponent defensive, then close the gap and get him close or into the NEZ( no escape zone) and then give him another radar missile or maybe a 27ET. Course it helps to know how to do the barrel roll trick to avoid any missiles they DO get off.

Go to http://www.flankertraining.com/ironhand/

Ironhand has an excellent tutorial about using semi-active missiles (r-27r/er/em) vs active missiles (120,r77).


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, or how smart you are, If it doesn't agree with experiment it is WRONG. ~Richard Feynman
#2093618 - 12/08/06 05:30 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Hammer Offline
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Sparrow has gotten more lethal and reliable with later variants but still has not quite shed its old nick name "the great white hope"...now you know why.


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#2093619 - 12/08/06 09:53 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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I B Spectre Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GrayGhost:
Vietnam war isn't particularely relevant to the AIM-7MF, which is -quite- far from the Vietnam era missile ... it is a completely different beast - highly reliable and dangerous.
The relevance was anecdotal. Though many upgrades have occurred along the way, the requirement for the launch aircraft to paint the target throughout the Sparrow's flight regime has not changed. Compared to the fire-and-forget AMRAAM, the upgraded AIM-7s still compromise maneuvering options, hence survivability, of the launch aircraft.

#2093620 - 12/08/06 10:49 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Tails Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by I B Spectre:
Compared to the fire-and-forget AMRAAM, the upgraded AIM-7s still compromise maneuvering options, hence survivability, of the launch aircraft.
'Fire and forget' is an over-rated ability of the AMRAAM. A maddog shot has no mid-course guidance, and no IFF capability. Any target with more than five brain cells flying in anything but a straight line will end up out of the AMRAAM's radar scan-pattern when it gets to where it thinks you were. And heaven help any friendly aircraft that are infront of the thing in the above situation.

To be effective, an AMRAAM needs to be supported to activation, which is very much similar to keeping a target painted for a semi-active weapon, maneuvering restrictions and all.


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#2093621 - 12/08/06 11:22 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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I B Spectre Offline
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Friendly aircraft are likely to have less than five brain cells and the enemy, more? That's not giving much credit to your team. I wouldn't think it prudent to fire any weapon with a friendly downrange and your IFF should indicate the presence of friendlies within your radar scan, should it not? While staying with the AMRAAM and keeping the target painted may increase its PK, the chances of getting one with an AIM-7 while not continuing to paint is zip. I'd rather have the option to avoid an incoming missile and maybe still get a hit than to avoid a missile and throw one of my own away.

#2093622 - 12/09/06 02:53 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Tails Offline
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My statement in regards to friendly aircraft is due to the fact that the AMRAAM without datalink support will lock on to the first thing its radar gets a return off of. If that happens to be your wingmate who didn't break fast enough...


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#2093623 - 12/09/06 03:33 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Doesn't the AMRAAM have a point in space at which it turns on (goes active) that is predetermined prior to launch. If the data-link is lost mid-flight..does it wait for that "turn on" point or does it immediately go active? Or am I mixing up how the torpedoes worked in Red Storm Rising? \:D

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#2093624 - 12/09/06 03:52 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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From the buds I fly with, my understanding is that a Slammer will immediately 'go active' if it loses its data link with the launching aircraft. However, it has been a while since I talked to them about it...so my recall may be flaky.

Which made it not very ideal for the ADF mission as first purposed...

FastCargo

#2093625 - 12/09/06 05:13 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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IIRC the slammer flies to an 'activation point' which is updated via data link (or more to the point - the missile and aircraft use a common reference system, which on the missile is initialized prior to launch when software is loaded from aircraft to missile - the datalink sends the location of the target, the missile knows its own location in the same coordinates as the aircraft, so it knows where the target is, and computes an intercept point)

If you lose the datalink, the missile might go active a little easier to maximize its search possibilities, but I doubt it would fly radar on for long stretches of time if the target was indeed far away - there are power/heating issues it must contend with, the battery will only last so long.


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#2093626 - 12/09/06 05:14 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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LOMAC slammer, however, will go active the moment you break lock, and it does -not- do its own navigation.


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#2093627 - 12/09/06 06:58 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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D-scythe Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tails:
'Fire and forget' is an over-rated ability of the AMRAAM. A maddog shot has no mid-course guidance, and no IFF capability. Any target with more than five brain cells flying in anything but a straight line will end up out of the AMRAAM's radar scan-pattern when it gets to where it thinks you were. And heaven help any friendly aircraft that are infront of the thing in the above situation.

To be effective, an AMRAAM needs to be supported to activation, which is very much similar to keeping a target painted for a semi-active weapon, maneuvering restrictions and all. [/QB]
Over-rated? You do know that the missile spends the lion's share of its flight time in the end-game, right? Even the tiny radar on the AMRAAM allows you to skip out on at least 10-20 seconds of support time - you think those 10-20 seconds are over-rated?

More to the point, anything under 8 miles are truly fire-forget. Can't do that with Sparrow.

#2093628 - 12/09/06 05:01 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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Try 13 nm \:\) Depending on fuze setting and target, more (or lesS)


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#2093629 - 12/10/06 06:29 AM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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D-scythe Offline
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In Lock On, it's 6-8. Definitely not 13 nm.

#2093630 - 12/10/06 08:37 PM Re: Using Sparrows against fighters  
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You might get 13nm if you are flying high (might) Like D-scythe said 6-8 miles is the normal. Which is cut more then half the real one. Also the Aim-9's is cut in half as well, in lock it is about 3-6 miles.


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