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#2089811 - 03/25/06 04:50 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeachAV8R:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SUBS17:
[qb]

The reason (and this is only my opinion) that I think many pilots feel that sometimes sims feel overly complex compared to the real thing is that by their very nature sims have to compress a lot of "stuff" into a very structured and narrow interface (monitor, keyboard, HOTAS). ....

In the sim world..you don't have the luxury of tactile feedback and what I would call "positional prompting"..you sort of have to learn things line-by-line.
BeachAV8R
This is an excellent analysis and you are perfectly right, IMHO. Since you do not of only a single data pipe for the input in real life, even while actually working with more data/facts, it is less complicated or confusing. It is quite natural to integrate everything.

Very good point.

Michael.

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#2089812 - 03/25/06 04:35 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeachAV8R:
Quote:
Originally posted by SUBS17:
I really don't get it when people of any background tell me its too complex.
I think you countered your statement with your own statement.. ;\) If someone has "background"..then they are obviously speaking with some authority and first hand knowledge of the concept...

The reason (and this is only my opinion) that I think many pilots feel that sometimes sims feel overly complex compared to the real thing is that by their very nature sims have to compress a lot of "stuff" into a very structured and narrow interface (monitor, keyboard, HOTAS). In the real airplane, memory is aided by the physical position and act of moving your arm or head around the cockpit..so you develop a natural flow based not on the keyboard commands or checklist sequence, but rather on the very positioning of your body, arms, head and eyes in the cockpit.

Let me try to give you a "for instance" from a non-combat real life environment.

In the Citation..after you start the engines one of the first items on the post start checklist is to check out the aircraft electrical system which is located on the left subpanel. Moving your head to look to the left and down you also move your left hand over to that panel and alternately turn off first one, then the other generators, then both to see if you trigger a master caution. Then you rotate a rotary left and right to check the output voltages of the left and right generators. While your hand is over there..and you are looking over there..you also configure the anti-ice systems, external lights, and a few other things..just because your hand is over there and you happen to be looking over there....

In the sim world..you don't have the luxury of tactile feedback and what I would call "positional prompting"..you sort of have to learn things line-by-line..and learn keyboard shortcuts (particularly in a non-3D cockpit) that take the place of physical movements. Physical movements are very easy to link to memory items...and it is just the nature of the simulation beast that these movements can't be fully replicated (despite advances such as TrackIR and clickable cockpits).

I don't presume to answer for HammFist..just my take on it... \:\)

Regards..
BeachAV8R
I don't see it that way, I get the impression that a person has only given it 5 minutes and then given up! On the surface it might look complex but the reality is that it is not which is my point.(eg several pages of key commands, but only use about 10% of those keys) Its far simpler when you compare it to the real life aircraft and what you need is extra time and patience to pick it up in FC. I can understand where someone wants to jump in and fly it on FC as they do IRL and run into problems such as oversensitive controls on the stick(which can be fixed as AFM is the default profile). I can see and have seen guys drop FC or AF for console sims because of this and it always boils down to wanting to run before learning to walk.

#2089813 - 03/25/06 05:16 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aviar:
Kind of interesting, what this real life A-10 pilot had to say about LOMAC in this article:

http://www.simhq.com/_air6/air_212c.html

Did he actually say that the 'flying maneuvering' in a PS2 game (Ace Combat) felt more 'realistic' than LOMAC?

Here is the quote from the article:

-----------------------------------
Beef: With computer simulations, I was aware when LOMAC was released, but didn't buy it. Some time afterwards, I happened to see it on sale in a Best Buy. When I saw the container cover art, I had to buy it. I mean, the aircraft on the cover was the plane that had my name on it, how could I resist?

What I found was that the graphics were very good, but it was far too difficult to fly. In most sims, they want to make the game have as many options as the actual airplane though a myriad of keyboard shortcuts. When you are in the real deal, things are much simpler, more intuitive.

I like the PS2 game, Ace Combat, because to me the flying maneuvering is more realistic... although a 450 KIAS A-10 certainly isn't.
-----------------------------------

Aviar
I'm the guy that wrote the interview, so yeah sure, that's what he said.

We didn't have time to get into that aspect in a whole lot of depth, so I don't want to presume to know what he meant by this word or that phrase.

My guess is that he bought LOMAC for the reason he said he did, it featured the aircraft that has his name on it. He was probably hoping to have a little fun playing it, maybe simulate some scenarios he doesn't do in the real deal.

What he discovered was that in certain respects it was more complicated than what he does at work. He wasn't looking to find that serious a hobby, just some entertainment. Which he found in Ace Combat. And it doesn't mean he played LOMAC once and put it on the shelf. Maybe he still plays it.

He didn't slam LOMAC or PC sims whatsoever. The fact that he likes Ace Combat is just that, fact. Why anyone would be bothered by that (and I do sense it bothers some people in here) is beyond me.


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#2089814 - 03/25/06 05:23 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by HammFist:
Quote:
Originally posted by SUBS17:
How hard is that? :rolleyes: , I really don't get it when people of any background tell me its too complex. Most of this can be mapped out onto a simple HOTAS. For looking around get a Trakir. Hell its even easier than PF in alot of ways. As for your propsim you might as well get x-plane as I think xplane simulates those aspects of flight in prop aircraft. Or if you like shooting stuff FO when its released.
Nevermind.
Check your PMs HammFist

#2089815 - 03/25/06 05:27 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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#2089816 - 03/25/06 07:13 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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I specifically highlighted the words 'flying maneuvering' because I thought the pilot was comparing the FM's, or at very least, the way the planes 'felt\handled' (my words) in relation to his real life experience. You see, he used the 'r' word (realistic), which always peaks my interest when coming from a veteran combat pilot.

It seems as though many of the posts are discussing gameplay mechanics, which was not the intention of my original topic.

Aviar


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#2089817 - 03/25/06 08:21 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Aviar,
I know, I had the same thought. I may have a chance to follow up with Beef (hopefully on base), and if I do I'll ask him about this.


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#2089818 - 03/25/06 09:02 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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I am someone who doesn't have LOMAC etc - I looked in here because i'm looking for a heli combat sim soon.
I have flown F4 and FB but mainly BOB and now OFF-
But I find the posts re real life pilots interesting. I play golf with a retired RAF Lighning pilot who has flown all sorts including Spitfire etc , and he says he finds sims ( mine ) hard !
I'd love to get him into it, but he isn't keen. Says it shows him up!
Of course, I'm sure if he had the time to get used to the HOTAS keys etc he'd be fine, but it is interesting re him finding it hard!
I see he is not alone.
Does my ego a power of good too \:\)


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#2089819 - 03/25/06 10:50 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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I think the really hard part in complex simulations is the lack of physical feedback. There's just so little to tell you what your aircraft is doing.

In the IL2 WW1 thread here was a vid posted of a Sopwith Camel replica flying in New Zealand. You could see the aircraft fighting the pilot every second of the flight. Massive torque, on off throttle, lightweight aircraft, you get the picture. The crosswind landing looked very very hairy with the Camel pivoting around all over. The point I want to make is that I can't see any way that those sort of flight characteristics would be controlable in sim without physical feedback.


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#2089820 - 03/26/06 12:00 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mogster:
The crosswind landing looked very very hairy with the Camel pivoting around all over.
Flying the Su-25T in LOMAC:FC is about as fun as you can get regarding landings and takeoffs...I love the feeling of all those complex inputs required to do it properly..and I think it simulates real life well. Also..X-Plane does that very well too...

Good observations...

Regards..
BeachAV8R



#2089821 - 03/26/06 01:02 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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I think the most technical side of flight sims is actually getting them to work. You look at flight sims such as FC and AF you have to have a PC that meets minimum requirements, most systems have to be tweaked to run the sim in most cases upgraded graphics cards or RAM. Then for online play you have to forward ports and configure firewalls. Then you have HOTAS setup and axis sensitivity to top it off. For lockons A-10 the curve must look something like this:

If its a straight line then the aircraft will be very difficult to fly. A good place to start is use the mission editor and place a US A10 on a runway and select takeoff from runway or parking area(a good habit to get into since most MP games start in the parking area) and make sure its flown by the player. This is good for doing the flight basics such as takeoff-landing and getting used to how it handles. For weapons the instant action mission is a good place to start. You can also turn on your labels to get used to finding targets. CNTRL F5 also helps as it gives you a view showing both your aircraft and the ground target.

#2089822 - 03/26/06 05:50 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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One thing in the discussion that should be remembered.

"Fun","Realistic", and "Immersive" don't always go together in the same sim, depending on the sim, and on the person making the description.

As a 'btdt' person in both the civilian and military flying gig, keyboard commands for the simplest things can be frustrating for the person who just wants to fly and blow stuff up. Bringing up the gear, talking to your wingman, getting and keeping a padlock are all intuitive and use 3 of the 5 senses. Having to read about and assign keyboard commands to do the simplest things can be a turn off if you do it in your real job where you can do it without thinking.

The closet example I can think of is being in a driving simulator, and having to learn keyboard commands to turn on the turn signals, hit the horn, roll down the window, change the radio station and volume (or select an MP3 song). And changing your view of course...

You get the idea. So just because a RL pilot enjoys a 'lite' title isn't a slam on simulators or simulator fans, just how he feels...maybe just on that day.

FastCargo

#2089823 - 03/26/06 01:08 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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SUBS17 you why did you go so low, and how could you still miss? i dont know if you do but, single burst are better to hit a target.

also i set my joystick in the default stuff since when i tempered with that screen it was a huge ***** to try and fly the plane, does lock allow profiles or you just tweak that everyplane you get?

#2089824 - 03/26/06 01:14 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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That is why most exmilitary pilots who take up flightsims make their own home cockpits. And you would be surprised at just how far some people will go to achieve that. From simply rewiring a keyboard to purchasing F-16 panels and projectors. Also you have programs such as shoot to take care of the wingman commands or Ventrillo for Squadron flights. Its good to see on the horizon two sims that will feature the good ol A-10 with full clickable pit. I'm looking forward to purchasing them both. \:D

#2089825 - 03/26/06 01:20 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blade_RJ:
SUBS17 you why did you go so low, and how could you still miss? i dont know if you do but, single burst are better to hit a target.

also i set my joystick in the default stuff since when i tempered with that screen it was a huge ***** to try and fly the plane, does lock allow profiles or you just tweak that everyplane you get?
I was aiming at a tank further along the convoy \:D (yeah I fly low sometimes but after BS I'll be keeping my distance more as the trucks and tanks will be returnning fire). Since the above pick I purchased an X-45 so my profile has changed for my axis yet again.

This curve I can fly both AFM and SFM, although AFM is better with a straight line. Regarding the AFM you have to switch each time so if you fly the A-10,F-15, SU27/33, Mig29 its a curve and SU25/T its a line.

#2089826 - 03/26/06 04:42 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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subs what you grafic card yuou screen dont look much better than mine, only in your i can see the smoke on the a10, i coul see smoke with the 70xx drivers but it was too lag for all my other sims so i went back to 60xxs ,pity if i have never seen the smoke i wouldnt care but after i got used to it i want it back, oh well....its more than time to buy a new video card.

#2089827 - 03/26/06 09:14 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by csevers:
I think in the future we will see flightsims transition to consoles. There is no reason someone can't develop a HOTAS controller that works on a console(see Steel Battalion for Xbox) and the developers wouldn't have to deal with all the headaches of everyone having different hardware setups. With the newer consoles having HD support we can get some decent resolutions even. Not saying flightsims on PC will die, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a true sim on something like the Xbox 360.
I disagree. It will never happen. Flight sims will remain PC only. Video gaming is driven by the market, and the market says 95% of consolers have zero interest in a legitimate, hardcore flight sim.


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#2089828 - 03/26/06 11:57 PM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blade_RJ:
subs what you grafic card yuou screen dont look much better than mine, only in your i can see the smoke on the a10, i coul see smoke with the 70xx drivers but it was too lag for all my other sims so i went back to 60xxs ,pity if i have never seen the smoke i wouldnt care but after i got used to it i want it back, oh well....its more than time to buy a new video card.
That picture is just plain ol lockon 1.02 using a ATI 9600pro with 256MB ram. I still use the same graphics card but now have 1 gig ram on the m/board instead of 512mb. In FC as well as black smoke you can also get dust kicked up behind the aircraft at low level.

#2089829 - 03/27/06 12:01 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plainsman:
Quote:
Originally posted by csevers:
I think in the future we will see flightsims transition to consoles. There is no reason someone can't develop a HOTAS controller that works on a console(see Steel Battalion for Xbox) and the developers wouldn't have to deal with all the headaches of everyone having different hardware setups. With the newer consoles having HD support we can get some decent resolutions even. Not saying flightsims on PC will die, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a true sim on something like the Xbox 360.
I disagree. It will never happen. Flight sims will remain PC only. Video gaming is driven by the market, and the market says 95% of consolers have zero interest in a legitimate, hardcore flight sim.
I hate to break this to ya but the xbox 360 and PS3 are both practically PCs under the hood. To make matters worse they both have keyboards, mice and can also get HOTAS controllers. Overall when PCs move up to the next generation then flight sims on PCs will still be ahead in features but consoles are catching up quite rapidly. They also feature MP online.

#2089830 - 03/27/06 12:19 AM Re: Ace Combat more 'realistic' than LOMAC?  
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adding a point to subs afirmation consoles are easir to code since its single hardware no need to tweak and make it compatible with odler and futures hardwares,that being you can really hardcode the game for performance.with the cpu core that ps3 and xbox 360 have the only limit to make a real sim in them would be the interest of the publisher who would want to make a game sim in a console that wouldnt hit the lets guess 2 or 3 millions mark? although it can be just the contrary and many people who had no interest become a simmer, i was like this i first lplayed f22 raptor and i hated sim ,but when i played it,even being arcade my mind changed and now im a simmer, but you got admit it would be a shot in the dark,and now a days competition doesnt allow this kind of thing since youy can be out of business in the next mornign

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