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#1951277 - 04/13/06 11:57 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced *****  
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FlyXwire Offline
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I've contributed to, and helped test WWI flight modeling as modded to CFS3, and can say there's a lot of hard work that can go into their creation, despite the limitations of the sim's FM engine.

I guess you can say it would be harder to get authentic-like results working with fewer tools than not, and WW2-era sims haven't needed to model appreciable amounts of adverse yaw, and gyroscopic precession, and big, slow turning props, and poor control ergonomics, and unstabilized rudders and elevators, not to mention problems like insufficient control surface size, and the fact that most of the WWI-era planes flew on thin, sharp-nosed airfoils that made the onset of departure quick and unforgiving.

Which sim series, or flight model series people enjoy to fly may be very subjective, but there should be no real disagreement that a WWI sim does need a flight modeling engine that gives the designers the tools to make "WWI FMs".

We've heard that GT is adapting the IL-2 engine for the WWI-era, and this is where the rubber will meet the road so to speak.....I wish them the best of luck on this, because getting the basics right (albeit more WWI-specific "basics"), will mean whether the tools exist or not within the sim's engine to start the job of flight modeling these early warbirds from the start of the process.

If the parameters, and layers of WWI flight modeling complexity is not pre-built into a sim's flight engine from the beginning, no one will have the ability to make good FMs or bad ones, they'll only be adaptations of some other era's aerodynamic "reality" anyway.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1951278 - 04/13/06 12:10 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Neal Offline
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Just look at the biplanes in IL2 for the basic abilities. Departure onset is very much part of the IL2 series though more evident in many monoplanes.

What was said... it's only got to beat RB3D and to do that, the campaign engine display, planning, and immersive details need to carry more than IL2 currently, but I'll trade FM/DM for the rest.

#1951279 - 04/13/06 12:38 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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RB3D... and OFF.

#1951280 - 04/13/06 12:53 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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What was advised previously is "don't sim the sim"......excellent advice by Dart!

1) No biplanes mounted rotary engines in WW2, not even the U-2/Po-2.

2) Maybe a comparison should be made with those airfoil sections.....you might be surprised.

3) No production biplanes used variable-speed props in WWI.

.....the list goes on......

What has been expressed already is that IL-2 long ago exceeded RB3D in flight modeling fidelity, and well before this current effort to adapt it to WWI (you don't have to agree....and that's no problem). \:\)

#1951281 - 04/13/06 01:05 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Hey bzhyoyo!

Neal, you could read the May edition of PC Gamer, there's a great column of how Over Flanders Fields has reached and surpassed RB3D (it's a mod to CFS3).....albeit the winner of SimHQ's recent mod of the year award. ;\)

Read someone else's opinion on it, but if you're looking for something better than RB3D, it's probably already out there for you.

#1951282 - 04/13/06 01:40 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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In case some havent seen this, heres a link to DR-1 flight character.

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/flight.htm


btw Vik, FlyXwire.
Havent forgotten, the scanner arrived today.

#1951283 - 04/13/06 04:30 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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New website is up - and so is this weeks update.

Go and drool over the Roland, Sopwith Tripe and Camel pits.

They are - as usuall - excellent.

http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/

Barkhorn.


"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion."--- William Ralph Inge

"The ORIGINAL Barkhorn"
#1951284 - 04/13/06 05:39 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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akdavis Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BA_Dart:
Whoa, slow down, partner.

I understand your viewpoint, and agree with it on principle.

However, there are some nuances with these birds that simply can't be translated to computers; all I'm saying is that there is "reasonable" and there is "unflyable" to 99.99998% of everyone.

Do I want the torque, slip stream, and wind to really, really make landing a Camel a white knuckle affair? Yeah, actually I do. I want to have to put that sucker in this ugly, nasty slip just to see ahead and below me on final, like that guy at the Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York, all the while blipping the engine with the greatest of hesitation, knowing that if I get it wrong I'll ground loop it or simply stall out.

What I don't want is something that is so finicky that landing becomes a function of "simming the sim," where one throws out actual piloting skill for the "book answer" (according to the sim), or a travesty of finding a loophole in the code that is completely wrong (but works).

I've seen both in sims. The whole "simming the sim" part is part of the reason I left RB3D. Getting really good at the sim meant flying the code, not the aircraft; from hit boxes to some bizarre quirks in the code, the really deadly aces found the best way to make the sim work.

Some of them were absolutely shocked when they tried IL-2, as what they thought were flight sim skills were really RB3D skills that didn't translate at all. Most of those folks adapted quickly, but I remember shooting down a group of deadly RB3D guys that normally just laughed at me with ease, while they struggled not only to fly, but to shoot (the idea that one had to actually hit the aircraft to do damage is alien to a RB3D pilot).

Likewise, it would be heartbreaking to have nothing but ground loops by proficient virtual pilots trumped by some clown that figures out that one should make the final inverted and roll just before touching down. Or most everyone making dead stick landings, calling those striving for a power-on mad and reckless.

On the whole realism vs. difficulty argument, there's a fine balance.

Sure, there should be a checklist and a lengthy procedure before flight. But I just want to press "I," unless you want to simulate a crew chief, mechanics, armaments guys, etc., to help me out. If they put junk like that in there, give me an option to turn it off.

No two planes should fly the same, especially WWI crates. Some should perform much better than others, and each should have unique quirks. Can you imagine the howls when a virtual pilot draws the dog plane of the Escadrille? Or the claims of cheating and FM error when some spring butt virtual pilot shows that the D.V.a is either 50 mph too fast or slow than some data he has dug up, or is contrary to some real pilot's account?

"The ceiling is all wrong on plane X, I couldn't take it up to 15,000 feet, thought Flt. Sgt. Crumpets clearly wrote that he took his scout to 16,000 feet and came down only after getting dizzy."

"You probably got a plane that was off horsepower, was poorly doped, or just flat out warped in the wings, the fuselage, or both," writes back the developer.

And some should be completely unreliable. Every squadron had a "hangar queen" or two, where no matter what they did, the darned thing just wasn't right.

I think it would be neither fun nor a valuable lesson in "realism" to have my engine randomly konk out on takeoff, putting me into the treeline; nor do I want an oil pump to spontaneously stop working; or the gun synch gear to fail on it's own, thereby shooting off my prop; or the machinegun to become jammed to the point of not clearing on the first round. I don't want my avatar to develop hypothermia at 7,000 feet (though I'll accept hypoxia at 11,000), or develop a fever, have a hangover, get the clap, nurse wounds from a year ago, etc.

That's the realism I don't want.

I suspect you'll agree that at some point the "realism" effort is just a difficulty setting that few will use and serve only as either masochism for some and some wolf ticket selling from PR guys.

Are we closer to agreement?
Well, of course we agree. First, everything I said was qualified by within the constraints of hardware. There are obviously many nuances of flight from any era that our current computers cannot reproduce.

But that was not what was stated earlier. The previous assertion was that these aircraft would be too hard to fly if they had realistic FMs, due to our lack of physical input and feedback.

The whole simming the sim argument is not about difficultly level, it about a good FM versus a bad FM. I would never advocate that realistic outcomes should be dictated by an unrealistic FM. Give us a realistic FM and let us deal with the outcomes. Give us difficulty options with which to approach the FM at our own comfort levels.

My great-grandfather was made a pilot instructor for British and Canadian officer cadets after soloing for only a handful of hours! In turn, these pilots were sent off to Europe 1917-1918 with only a handful of solo hours themselves. (That's not to say it wasn't dangerous. Of the several hundred trained here, some dozen were killed, not to mention many, many accidents).

The FM does not need to be moderated for the masses.


--AKD

"I hope and I need." -Oleg Maddox
#1951285 - 04/13/06 06:18 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Mogster Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Bedford:
Also applies to gliders, with those looong wings adverse yaw is significant and without rudder you just dont turn. In fact a trial-lesson at your nearest gliding centre would be a very good way to understand how the older planes actually flew......and quite cheap.

Cheers,
Keith [/QB]
Have you tried Condor the gliding sim? Its well worth a look. Very nice fm, in fact maybe the best feeling of flight that I've found in a PC sim.


WAS C2D 8500 3.16ghz, 285gtx 1gb, 4gig ram, XP NOW Win7 64, I5 2500K, SSD, 8Gig ram, GTX 570
#1951286 - 04/13/06 09:12 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barkhorn1x:
New website is up - and so is this weeks update.
Thanks for the reminder Barkhorn, and the new stuff is looking great, including GT's new website screenshot viewer.

(credits the artists working on each model)

#1951287 - 04/14/06 07:11 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Neal Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
What was advised previously is "don't sim the sim"......excellent advice by Dart!

1) No biplanes mounted rotary engines in WW2, not even the U-2/Po-2.

2) Maybe a comparison should be made with those airfoil sections.....you might be surprised.

3) No production biplanes used variable-speed props in WWI.

.....the list goes on......

What has been expressed already is that IL-2 long ago exceeded RB3D in flight modeling fidelity, and well before this current effort to adapt it to WWI (you don't have to agree....and that's no problem). \:\)
Sighhhhhhh.

Well okay first S! FX!

No, none of the biplanes have all the elements yet all of those elements are presently capable by the IL2 engine.

From the biplanes I think we can get a good idea of how well IL2 engine will do two sets of wings even if only by idle power gliding with prop pitch as close to feather as possible.

-----------------------------------------------

Yeah I know of OFF and while tempted I still also do not see or hear from my old RB buddies of any mass exodus in that direction despite the coverage on some forums including SWWISA. So I just dunno.

From Sensei I understand that CFS3 AI rates really low, perhaps that's it I just don't know.

Has CFS3 gone bargain bin yet? And I don't mean dropped from $50 clear down to $40 either. $20 or under and I'd give it a try... maybe. I gave my I paid full price for copy of CFS original away since it was to me a waste of time after 3 months.

#1951288 - 04/14/06 07:14 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Neal Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by akdavis:

My great-grandfather was made a pilot instructor for British and Canadian officer cadets after soloing for only a handful of hours! In turn, these pilots were sent off to Europe 1917-1918 with only a handful of solo hours themselves. (That's not to say it wasn't dangerous. Of the several hundred trained here, some dozen were killed, not to mention many, many accidents).

The FM does not need to be moderated for the masses.
It sounds like the planes should not be terribly difficult to fly. Advanced maneuvers however.....

#1951289 - 04/14/06 08:30 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Freycinet Offline
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The Roland fuselage is really a work of art! - Wonderful wooden torpedo... ;\)

- And is there a woman working on the sim? - I see "Danila Khairov" is partly responsible for the marvellous Camel cockpit.


My Il-2 CoD movie web site: www.flightsimvids.com
#1951290 - 04/14/06 08:40 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Freycinet Offline
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Maybe some native English speaker (so not me ;\) ) should offer to correct the Knights of the Sky description on the Gennadich page:

http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/id/69/

"Gennadich Team has officially announced starting a new PC simulation project with working title 'WWI: Knights of the Sky". The game's plot is based on historical standoff between Antanta and Germany on Belgium-France border back in 1916-1918. During this period, dubbed the dawn of airforce, combat aviation was born and first aces earned fame in daring dogfights. On territory 100 000 sqaure miles wide, players will be able to take part in famous battles at Ipres, Malmeson, Cambri, as well as Liese river operation and Verden 'meat mincer'. Users will be given an opportunity to fly 13 legendary airplanes including Fokker Dr.1, Nieuport 17/17bis/23, SPAD XIII, Albatros D.III, Gotha G.V, SopwithCamel, R.E.8. AI-controlled units will nsist of 30 NPC aircraft and some 60 types of ground units. The game will contain both single and multiplayer (LAN/Internet) modes as well as historically realistic campaigns for both sides and user-friendly training missions. At the core, the game is based on the deep modification of Maddox Games' Il2-Sturmovik engine to which the team is planning to add thousands of new features. These changes will include new 3d models, terrain, video and sound effects, light/gunnery physics adjustments and many other things that will bring the game to modern standard. The project is currently scheduled to be released by Fall 2006 (Russian publisher is 1C)."


My Il-2 CoD movie web site: www.flightsimvids.com
#1951291 - 04/14/06 09:11 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Rama Offline
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Toulouse France
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
It sounds like the planes should not be terribly difficult to fly. Advanced maneuvers however.....
I talked 2 week ago with the Breguet XIV replica test pilot (who's in certification process for meeting purpose).

He said that flying this plane, requires constant attention because of rear centering (and they added lead weight in the nose in order to reduce this rear centering). The plane is difficult to fly, because you must fly it every second.
What he said also:
- you must turn with induced roll (with rudder)
- action on ailerons requires wrestling arm muscles....

That rejoining the same comments I've heard by other pilots flying other plane replica (those Takata shown picture of, from the Memorial flight and operated at AJBS)

#1951292 - 04/14/06 10:22 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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=FB=VikS Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:

- And is there a woman working on the sim? - I see "Danila Khairov" is partly responsible for the marvellous Camel cockpit.
oh no, watch out! \:D \:D \:D

Danila is an Daniil (Danil?) name in russian spelling, so hes a man actually.


VikS
Flying BARANS Forever!
"All wool - to the front!"
www.barans.ru
www.riseofflight.com
#1951293 - 04/14/06 11:31 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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It is not confusing how disagreement can exist on how these old planes flew, afterall, few of us have had the priviledge to actually fly an original or exacting WWI replica aircraft, and to believe that flying biplanes in a sim environment qualifies as stick time is a real stretch.

As Rama has illustrated above, the replica Breguet 14 displays poor balance between control inputs, with the ailerons being exceedingly stiff to deflect. The plane requires the use of the rudder to induce roll, and the plane must be constantly flown.

Has anyone ever experienced this kind of flight modeling in a WWI flight sim before.....in a WW2 sim?

How is the pilot's required input strength now factored into flight simming? I certainly haven't gained any muscles deflecting my wimpy gaming joystick over my years of virtual flying that's for sure.....have any of us?

How are unharmonized control deflections factored into flight simming? Matter of fact, joystick sensitivity, deadzone, and gain adjustments should all be deactivated when flying early aviation sims......because this will be the first thing simmers will try to tamper with in order to make these virtual WWI planes easier to fly! In fact for "fairness", when we meet in the virtual WWI skies online, stock joystick settings should be demanded, lest someone "cheats" by making their plane easier to fly than another player's set-up (is this a rediculous demand to expect.......I'll answer that myself.......obviously it's a rediculous expectation FlyXwire). \:D

They often say that the first casualty of war is the illusion of what war is (don't they), and the first causalty of flying flight sims is to believe we're doing it like the real thing. Sure, I can be a purist and demand that no one should be allowed to adjust their joystick settings in this upcoming sim so that everyone has to fly the "same"........would I be crazy to think that's at all a realistic expectation.......you don't need to answer guys, because I know it is (because we're all holding different expectations already).

So the first casualty of flight simming is to give up the myth that we're doing the real thing (obviously), and then to expect what's possible to reproduce with artificial computer coding, and then to hope that what's most important is reflected in the flight models, and then see if any of this even remotely allows us to experience a WWI-like combat experience, on a computer.

So some of you are demanding "hard", "difficult", "realistic", flight modeling in "Knights", huh.......

Make a list of what you mean!

Tell us what flight characteristics you most want and expect for the included planes here for "Knights", because "hard", "difficult", or "realistic" just doesn't help us understand, and probably adds to the confusion.

Let's see some specifics.......... \:\)

#1951294 - 04/14/06 12:03 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Freycinet Offline
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It would be a good idea to make "joystick settings" on/off a part of the difficulty setting in KotS then.

Just make them all default to a medium setting, locked, in the "joystick settings off" difficulty.

Then the real hard-core sim fans can fly at Gennadich's version of realistic poorly balanced WWI controls.

Oh yes, I just introduced KotS: it should be our new acronym for Knights of the Sky, shouldn't it?

(I guess somebody already used it somewhere else, but haven't seen it myself)


My Il-2 CoD movie web site: www.flightsimvids.com
#1951295 - 04/14/06 12:29 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
It would be a good idea to make "joystick settings" on/off a part of the difficulty setting in KotS then.

Just make them all default to a medium setting, locked, in the "joystick settings off" difficulty.
Well, I was just using that as an illustration of what's probably not possible in flight sims yet, because our different gaming hardware makes it very difficult to achieve a "universal" joystick settings anyway. Things like control disharmony, input force would probably have to be factored into the base flight models themselves (I'm for it......quick duck, he're comes another salvo).

(KotS)

Sounds good to me Freycinet.

Is that Russian too....... \:D

#1951296 - 04/14/06 12:37 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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=FB=VikS Offline
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=FB=VikS  Offline
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Actually, with right flight model, none of joystick settings willnt make it easyer for you, so all the things will depend on the man, not the machine... hmm, but if to take into account, that you are ridin on "flying baskets with nails", it will depend, just a little ;\) .

PS: here is a little friday art from our 3D modellers. Dunno what they where thinkin about (i mean the road and that flying stuff on it) but who knows. \:\)
btw any psihoanalitics hangin around here? \:D

ah, and the link on the wallpaper is here

Link for a zip file - zip


VikS
Flying BARANS Forever!
"All wool - to the front!"
www.barans.ru
www.riseofflight.com
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