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#1951237 - 04/10/06 06:00 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced *****  
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Besides these are all complete replicas made using modern materials.

Beautifull though they are there's very little of the original about these aircraft. You couldn't really use them for valid performance data, they may be similar but there not the same.


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#1951238 - 04/10/06 06:42 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Well.....take the Fokker DR.Is and the Fokker D.VII in those Dayton pictures of mine above, they are exact replicas using the same materials, or as close to the same materials as the originals were constructed of. They use welded steel tubing in their airframes as Fokker did, and the wings are made of wood with the same airfoils as on the originals......along with being linen fabric covered and varnished doped. They all use original WWI powerplants, of appropriate horespower (albeit French Le Rhones for the rotaries), and therefore they swing the big coarse-pitch props optimized for their low rpm powerplants. Other features such as the MGs, fuel tankage, instruments, etc. are originals or copies of originals, so weight and distribution is near historical. The Fokker D.VII even has the vertical stablizer incidence adjustor, to position the surface's fixed angle to counteract torque in the air.....they are very exacting duplicates.

However, no one is going to push these planes to their limits in mock air combats testing their aerodynamic or structural limits, they're too valuable, and what would be the purpose today to risk the chance of damage or worse by pushing the envelope? Some flight impressions of replicas are very valuable, even to learning about stall characteristics, but many details of razor-edge maneuvering will have to come from the historical accounts. This is one thing that will be fascinating about GT's attempt to "update" the IL-2 engine for early aviation flight.....there will be much discovery in store, as the flight models of these legendary warbirds are "reverse-engineered" back to life.

No one should ever expect a sim engine to recreate an aeroplane's complex flight characteristics, but we should see some very authentic-like fascimilies, and that ought to be exciting enough in itself! \:\)

#1951239 - 04/10/06 10:05 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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I don't think many pilots would enjoy flying a true replica of any of the rotary engined planes with the magneto interrupt "throttle". I saw the video of the Sopwith Camel (with the spitfire) and that thing just looked a little to dangerous to be fun. You have to be in utter amazement though of the people who designed them and those that flew them.

#1951240 - 04/10/06 10:45 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Well, FlyXwire got it right. Aerodynamics is aerodynamics. Power to weight ratios are the same.

It's silly to think that an airfoil that is true to the original is going to perform in a different manner because it is made out of modern materials.

Same with the engine based performance. If the engine has basically the same weight and horsepower, then parts is parts.

Copterdrvr


Skids are for kids!
#1951241 - 04/10/06 11:24 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Some replica planes do not have wings as original. Those two Fokkers have less need because of the Gottingen thick wings, tamer near stall.

Replicas could be built aerodynamically and weighted the same with frames made to take large stresses.

#1951242 - 04/11/06 02:20 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Thats true, but again, FlyXwire said the planes he's been referring to are said to be "exact replicas"--again.

Copterdrvr


Skids are for kids!
#1951243 - 04/11/06 03:13 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Well, all I'm looking for is a reasonably close simulation of WWI aircraft.

I really don't want them to be too close to original, though. What's the fun in ground looping Camel after Camel....


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#1951244 - 04/11/06 03:37 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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#1951245 - 04/11/06 03:47 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Takata Offline
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Engine, original Hispano Suiza 220 hp:

http://storage.mfa.free.fr/gallery/spadXIII/res2001/d44.jpg

http://storage.mfa.free.fr/gallery/spadXIII/res2001/d48.jpg

http://storage.mfa.free.fr/gallery/spadXIII/res2001/d45.jpg

In flight :

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/gallery/franck/spad5.jpg

With Friends :

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/gallery/franck/big/a22.jpg

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/gallery/franck/big/a21.jpg

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/gallery/franck/bleriot1.jpg

[mod edit]

Get the hint on how to link to pics and stuff. I really appreciate the stuff you've dug up, but enough with displaying the images directly, unless either you hold the copywrite or have permission to.

Let's keep SimHQ a lawsuit free zone, shall we?

#1951246 - 04/11/06 03:48 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Takata Offline
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oh... ok!
sorry
:-)

#1951247 - 04/11/06 03:55 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Get the video here and check those pages :
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/gallery.html
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/fokkerDVIIuk.html
http://storage2.mfa.free.fr/video/spad.ram


Memorial Flight is an association working with the "Muse de l'Air"


Presentation :
Cre en Mars 1988, Memorial Flight s'est donne pour but la prservation et l'enrichissement du patrimoine aronautique franais et ce, en collaboration avec le Muse de l'Air et de l'Espace. Notre action porte principalement sur une priode riche, tant du point de vue technologique qu'humain, savoir la premire guerre mondiale.

Association but non lucratif, nos activits sont rgies par une convention passe en Octobre 1989 avec le ministre de la Dfense. Lors des restaurations ou reconstructions de ces appareils dans un atelier mis disposition par le Muse de l'Air et de l'Espace, la plus grande rigueur est apporte au respect des techniques, des matriaux et des motorisations d'origine.

Notre atelier est certifi unit d'entretien par la Direction Gnrale de l'Aviation Civile depuis Fvrier 1999.

C'est cette seule condition que le grand public et les amateurs auront une ide prcise de l'volution de l'aronautique ses dbuts. Pour mener bien cette mission, il est ncessaire d'obtenir un grand nombre d'informations (plans, documentations, pices, etc...) principalement auprs des muses franais et trangers ou de particuliers. Pour ce faire deux branches ont t cres, l'une en Angleterre, l'autre en Allemagne. Ces branches travaillent galement la restauration d'appareils qui leur sortie d'atelier rejoignent notre collection.

Une convention nous lie au Muse de Berlin depuis Mai 1994. Notre association est membre de British Preservation Council. Nos projets sont subventionns par le Conseil Gnral de l'Essonne en tant qu'association musale.

Ces avions sont tous immatriculs en France,et sont visibles par le grand public en exposition statique et en vol sur l'arodrome de Cerny/la Fert Alais.

http://memorial.flight.free.fr

S~
Takata

#1951248 - 04/11/06 04:19 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Takata Offline
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Translation:
Founded in March 1988, Memorial Flight is dedicated to the preservation and enrichment of the French and European aviation heritage. This is in cooperation with the Musee de l'Air et de l'Espace, Paris, France. Our actions are mainly centred on that particularly rich period in aviation history, World War One, either from a technical or human point of view.

Non-profit-making association, our activities are governed by a Ministry of Defence agreement signed in october 1989

Aeroplanes are either rebuilt or built in a Musee de l'Air owned workshop and great care is taken to ensure that original techniques, materials and engines are used and our workshop has been certificated since February 1999 by the Director General de l'Aviation Civile in France, the equivalent of the CAA. Only by working to this standard will the public gain the right ideas and impressions of the evolution of aviation in the early years.

In order to achieve this it is essential to get the maximum amount of information, such as plans, technical data, spare parts or information from museums across the world and from private collectors and researchers. This is the reason why two branches have been established, one in the UK and one in Germany, who rebuild machines that will later form part of our collection

We have had a cooperation agreement with the Berlin Museum since May 1994 and are member of the British Preservation Council. Our project are helped by the Essone regional council.

The aeroplanes are all registered in France and are to be seen, statically or in flight, at La Ferte Alais, south of Paris.


The Association started with the complex restoration to flying condition of an original SPAD XIII C1. The current flyable aeroplanes are a Fokker DR-I, a Blriot XI and a RAF SE5a reproduction, an original Morane AI type XXIX and a Dassault MD311 Flamant. Other projects include a Fokker DVII, an Albatros DIII Oeffag , a Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter 1B2 and the static restoration of the He 162 n120015 on behalf of the Muse de l'Air.

#1951249 - 04/11/06 05:18 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Great photo's

The quality of work on the Hispano Suiza is a joy to behold.

Is the camo scheme on the Dr-1 accurate?

Also the SE5 looks a little small next to the Dr-1, is it a 3/4 scale replica?

Non the less great shot's thanks for posting.

Would love to see more Albatros full scale replica's made as it's such a good looking aircraft (in my opinion)would be nice to see one in the air.

PC

#1951250 - 04/11/06 05:30 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Takata Offline
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I guess it's just an illusion about the respective size... the triplane looks biger because she's got one more wing!

:-)

here is the story about this plane rebuilding:
http://storage.mfa.free.fr/SE5Auk.html

... and here is the Albatros project:
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/Albatrosuk.html

#1951251 - 04/11/06 06:00 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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I just hope this sim doesn't require too much more horsepower than IL2FB. With the lack of WWI sims I've sort of given up on computer upgrades. I don't care much about dynamic lighting or the like.

Thanks for the Memorial Flight images, it's been awhile since I clicked on the site.

#1951252 - 04/11/06 10:57 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Quote:
Originally posted by BA_Dart:
I really don't want them to be too close to original, though. What's the fun in ground looping Camel after Camel....
.....and this is a good point by Dart, as modern day pilots who have flown the originals and exacting replicas almost universally remark as to how difficult and unrewarding many of the era's planes are to fly. The mid-war agility fighter developments that culminated in the Sopwith Camel and the Fokker DR.I., led to planes that were so inherently unstable that subsequent designs retreated from the push for evermore maneuverability.....at the expense of controllability (and the training time and cost in lives it took to produce proficient pilots).

The inline-engined stability fighter configuration, which would culminate with the superbly pilotable, and high-altitude capable Fokker D.VII, became the ascendant design format by the end of the war. Even the last Sopwith rotary fighter seeing combat (the Snipe) was a retreat from the "maneuverabilty at all cost" school of thought.

In terms of simulation possibilities, the expression "be wary of what you ask for" comes to the fore, in that the layers of difficulty that combined to make such planes as the Camel so tedious to fly in real life (inherent instability, unharmonized controls, gyroscopic precession, difficult engine management, etc.), would be viewed by many of us simmers as "botched flight models", conspiring to appear nonsensical in their performance, and being largely unmanageable to fly. Without being able to convey the forces of inertia and weight shift, and the shift of the slipstream within flight simulations, much of the essential seat-of-the-pants feedback that WWI pilots needed to survive flying many of the era's planes is absent.

Obviously no one has been able to create reality yet through simulation, and simulated flight must also compensate for this fact, in that much of the true experience of flying is lost when we sit down in front of our computer screens, and get ready to fly it as "real as it gets."

#1951253 - 04/11/06 11:40 AM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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FlyXwire Offline
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In reference to some of our previous discussion here on the potential for add-ons and multiplayer considerations for "Knights", comes the following quote today from member Beaufort's thread "Oleg speaks":

BoB

"BoB will have more sources open for third party. We expect even some third party industry around it. However it will be not like in MS sims. Its all becasue of fair online gameplay.
So the third party add-ons in most cases will be not playable with the main game content using online modes - Only on separate servers, except the cases if we will sertify such add-on for online gameplay and will close of its source code."


This has been my emphasis for having "official" add-on modules envisioned for "Knights" expansion (if this becomes a future possibilty)......the controlled multiplayer compatability this approach promotes. \:\)

#1951254 - 04/11/06 01:20 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Beautiful pics!

I agree with BA and FlyX-things could be made "too" real to the point of ruining the, well hell, taking the fun out of the whole thing.

I also agree with the importance and critical lack of the "seat of the pants" effect that only makes the whole flying thing even more difficult.

The almost total lack of instrumentation in those old birds makes me believe that the "seat of the pants" effect was a HUGE part of the big picture that made up the experience of flying back in the day.

The only thing I hope for is that the planes will have the performance similarities and differences between the different models.

It won't bother me at all if I don't have to fly my a/c while constantly tapping an on/off blipper switch. ;\)

Copterdrvr


Skids are for kids!
#1951255 - 04/11/06 01:58 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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akdavis Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BA_Dart:
Well, all I'm looking for is a reasonably close simulation of WWI aircraft.

I really don't want them to be too close to original, though. What's the fun in ground looping Camel after Camel....
This is what difficulty options are for. I know there are some egos that can't handle it, but a high fidelity sim that can be scaled down is far preferable to a dumbed down sim that maxes out at something less than realistic and leads to unending whingefests about that FM (or perhaps I should say MORE unending whingefests).


--AKD

"I hope and I need." -Oleg Maddox
#1951256 - 04/11/06 02:40 PM Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced  
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Copterdrvr Offline
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Another agreement here.

Let the people decide-as long as I can turn that real throttle crap off if I want to!

Copterdrvr


Skids are for kids!
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