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#1729197 - 04/15/06 02:23 AM Are your Stinger's missing?  
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I used to have a bookmark to this Longbow Anthology hint guide - unfortunately, the site has long since been decomissioned. Anyway, it used to have some useful tips that were nowhere to be found in the manual. Among others, the guide read that stingers have a higher chance of hitting if they are fired up and to the side of the target (i.e., so that they loft high and left/right before diving to strike the target)

Most of you in here probably already knew that, but I thought it might help anyone just getting into the game.

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#1729198 - 04/15/06 04:10 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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For me, Stingers are real hit and miss. 3 out of 4 times my stingers are spoofed, arcing or not. I find them highly unreliable on anything short of a MiG, and for enemy helicopters it's difficult to beat the gun despite it's range limit.

The hardest part is trying to dodge Havoc and Hokum missiles - I find that a combination of both jammers plus chaff plus beaming and maneuvering only rarely work, and most of the time you better have some solid cover to hide behind.

#1729199 - 04/15/06 04:51 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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I too find the Stingers highly unreliable. It would not be so bad if the Havoc's missiles actually missed at least once in awhile but evasive maneuvers + chaff and IR jamming very rarely work.


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#1729200 - 04/15/06 10:41 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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#1729201 - 04/16/06 04:35 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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My stingers usually go home (although I often need 2 to finish the job). However, I *never* can evade an enemy A/A missile, even 10-20 ft. off of the ground. If I pick up an aerial contact on radar, I immediately find a hill to hide behind.

#1729202 - 04/17/06 04:05 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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I have about a 50-50 success at missile evasion.
Much of it is because of the large amount of this I do in Falcon4 and LockOn.

First of all you have to see it coming to know how to "beam" them (if radar guided), secondly you have to dump the countermeasures (Chaff), thirdly turn into the missile in the last seconds to out manuever its turn radius.
Lastly, its good to turn on the Radar Jammer when youre going into an area with SAMs.

Im not sure if LB2 models IR missiles and jamming. It doesnt seem to have flares, just chaff, so that leads me to believe IR is not modeled.


AV8R
#1729203 - 04/17/06 05:04 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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The AH-64 doesn't have Flares, but uses the 'Disco Ball' IR jammer behind the rotor head.



This is modelled, according to the manual, anyway, and there is an IR JAMMER toggle and warning.

I would guess that since the 'Disco Ball' is at the rear and supposed to jam IR missiles heading for the hot engine exhuasts, it is pretty useless against head on attacks, which are mostly what we face (virtually) when going against enemy choppers.

Quote:


from http://www.vectorsite.net/avah64.html

The Apache can be optionally fitted with M130 chaff dispensers on each side of the rear tailboom, with each containing 30 chaff cartridges. The M130s can also carry flares to distract heat-seeking missiles, but Apache crews rely on ground cover and not flares for protection since flares can hit the tail rotor and can set ground vegetation on fire. However, the AH-64A does have an AN/ALQ-144 "disco light" heat-seeker jammer mounted just behind the rotor head.
Recluse


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#1729204 - 04/17/06 05:11 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Very good stuff Recluse. I knew about the sim's Radar & IR jammer (j and i keys respectively), but I didnt know for sure if LB2 modelled IR missiles. Im not sure if you can enable both at the same time. Also, when the missile is inbound theres little time to look at the MFD to check which kind is incoming.

If it came down to survival... Id take the flares and set the grass on fire, even if some might bounce off the tail rotor. Fighter aircraft have the ability to pick either or both types of countermeasures to be dispensed, as well as different program selections that work best for different kinds of scenarios (SAM sites, AAA sites, A2A, etc).

This picture does a good job of showing exactly how blind the Apaches are from behind. Without the rotating radar, AWACs, or a rear gaurd; it looks very vulnerable at 6.


AV8R
#1729205 - 04/17/06 05:35 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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I think the Blackhawk or Kiowa in the sim actually DOES have FLARES..and we KNOW the %^&* Russian choppers have them and they are very effective.

I will check my LB2 Strategy Guide tonight and see if they have a breakdown of the IR guided missiles in the SIM. I think that this information was also in Richard 'Flexman' Hawley's old HTML Strategy guide that is still floating around.

You bring up an interesting point! All this 'Bubble Canopy' design being put into late model Fast Movers to enable good vision all around upper hemisphere seems missing from choppers (probably due the the inherent design).

Of course, your transport pilots are similarly impaired and must rely on sensors/AWACS/rear guard/LUCK as well.

Heh...then think about the submariners who hardly ever get to 'see' anything under most operational modes.

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#1729206 - 04/17/06 10:04 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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This is a wild guess... but Id bet the RL Apache has audible warnings as to incoming threats which the pilot can discriminate type without going heads down to the MFDs. Jets have both RWR visual and audible threat detection capabilities. About all you have for IR lockons are knowing your SAM site and A/C types really well, and deploying countermeasures and evasive maneuvers to deal with each. Missile avoidance is about the hardest part of military aviation, IMHO. Cant learn offensive dogfighting without also knowing defensive measures as well.

Now for comparing a helo with a submarine...
thats really going "over board" eh matie? ;\)
Good discussion.


AV8R
#1729207 - 04/18/06 12:22 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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also, the disco ball overheats...fast. i think you only get about 10-20 seconds of jamming before it automatically shuts off to avoid overheating. so when you use your IR Jammer use it sparingly.
also, I think (key word...i'm probably wrong) that you'd want an IR missile at your 6; just because thats where the jammer is most effective, and because the engines have ducts that 'push' the exhaust to the sides. but then of course you run the risk of getting your tail rotor blown to hell...then it's all for nothing

#1729208 - 04/18/06 12:30 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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By the way...

The STINGERs that the LB2 uses is the AIM-92, are IR guided with a 3 KM range. From what Ive read, they are relatively easy to spoof.

Plus, being IR, its going to be most effective against hot bodies against cold backgrounds. Which means it will be best when fired at the rear aspect of a target, especially if the ground is hot or if the target has the sun behind it.

The Apache can also carry the AIM-9 SIDEWINDER, which is bigger than the AIM-92 STINGER. However, based off the LB2 manual page 7.13, it appears that only the STINGER is provided. Too bad, because the AIM-9 variants (P/M/X) are very lethal with all aspect and 2-3 times the range.

Let's compare two missile versions: AIM-9 SIDEWINDER (not modelled in LB2) and helicopter mod of AIM-92 STINGER.

Both of these missiles have too low of a range to even try to duel with Soviet Ka-50. More interesting thing that you can fit only one SIDEWINDER on each hardpoint of AH-64. That means ENTIRE AH-64, with ALL weaponry (except 30-mm gun) and ALL external tanks removed will carry as much AAMs, as single rack on Soviet Ka-50.

Lets look at the AIM-9 SIDEWINDER...

Having almost the same speed as A-11, max range of AIM-9 is 28 kilometers (18 miles). Real combat range is 16 kilometers (10 miles). The actual range depends on situation, but even in best situation 28 kilometers is maxium range, but it mostly around 16 kilometers. While Soviet A-11 ARCHER missiles, mounted on Ka-50, have a range above 40 kilometers.

The STINGER's maximum range is 8000 meters (five times less than Soviet A-11 ARCHER), and their ceiling is only 3000 meters, which means that Ka-50 can safely avoid STINGER attack just my moving a bit higher.

This information may answer the questions around their deployment and PK.


AV8R
#1729209 - 04/18/06 12:51 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Yeah, that was it Recluse -- "Flexman" Hawkley. You said that it's still online?! The last time I went there, the site was history. Where did you see the guide last?

@AV8B

Even when I bought LBA, I thought that the omission of the sidewinder was glaring. It's inclusion would have made face-to-face A/A entanglements(especially with Fulcrums) less of a death sentence. However, I don't know whether the typical loadout of a real Apache would call for Sidewinder's. From a practicality standpoint, I'd *guess* not -- seeing as how they'd be bigger heavier, and would limit the total amount of available A/A munitions. (I also would have liked it if the makers had let us fly a Supercobra, but I guess that's just wishful thinking ^^)

#1729210 - 04/18/06 01:17 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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The Stinger vs Sidewinder debate has been discussed oftentimes in forums outside of here. My opinion, from the information I have, is that Sidewinders are heavy, difficult to employ on a helicopter and cut back on what you can carry for the real mission - ground attack.

Also, if the Stinger was as easy to spoof as you say, AV8R, then it wouldn't be the primary low altitude air defense missile in use by the US Army. Remember Chaparral had 4 Sidewinder derivatives, and they ended up chucking it. In addition to that, keep in mind Stinger has gone through several system upgrades as well, so it's a far different missile than it was in say, 1991.

I think you're giving WAY too much benefit of doubt on the Sidewinder. 10 miles? Maybe for a fast moving jet. For a helicopter going 50-100 knots? No way. And we aren't flying at 15,000 to 20,000 feet here, we're right in the dirt. Sidewinder will have to accelerate to maximum speed under it's own power, and since we're only going a fraction of that speed, it's going to use up a lot of power just getting there.

Stinger on the other hand, benefits by being able to employ them on the wingtips in pairs of two, for a total of four. It also has the benefit of employing a booster behind it to accelerate it without needing to activate the motor, thus saving it some range. All that plus it doesn't inhibit your ability to carry G/A ordinance on your primary pylons.

Additionally, it's worth noting that operationally, the Sidewinder and Sidearm has never been employed in anger by the Apache. They were tested, but never employed. Sure, you could get them to work if you wanted to. But the same would go if you wanted to put a couple M61s on your pylons, too.

As for the Hokum carrying Archer... I doubt it. At best, maybe 4 Archer, same as Apache. In addition, I haven't been convinced that the Hokum or Havoc employ any form of air to air missile. I believe they use their Ataka, which would make more sense. Ataka is supposed to be able to track aerial targets, and given that we can rarely break the 150 knot barrier, it makes more sense. Carry 12-16 Ataka as a dual purpose missile against both armor and helicopters, save yourself the trouble of having to carry two separate missile types.

Lastly, you are not warned when an IR missile acquires a lock on your aircraft. The very nature of an IR missile is passive detection, and last I checked it took some very expensive equipment (not in wide use in '97) to even know an IR missile was fired at you. Mark One Eyeballs are all you have for IR missile detection.

I'm sure Shadow will weigh in on how much Sidewinder blows.

#1729211 - 04/18/06 01:55 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
Yeah, that was it Recluse -- "Flexman" Hawkley. You said that it's still online?! The last time I went there, the site was history. Where did you see the guide last?

I found it lying around and uploaded it to my webspace.

Try this link:

LB2-Guide (unzip with folder structure intact)


According to the LB2 Strategy guide (I don't recall if these tables are in Flexman's guide or not), these are the IR guided missiles in the game:

A2A:
AIM-92C (Stinger)
AIM-9M (probably carried by F-16)
AA-11 (Probably carried by the MiG and possibly the RED Helos)

SAM:

FIM-92C (Stinger fired from US AVENGER platform)
SA-7 MANPADS
SA-14 MANPADS
SA-13 SA-13 Launcher
SA-9B SA-9 SAM
SA-16 Not specified
SA-18 Not specified

(Infantry is shown to possibly also carry SA-8, SA-14. Interestingly, the CIS and IRanian SAM carriers cannot see at night, while the US troops have night vision)

Now what is very interesting is there are tables of how much the munitions are degraded by jamming/decoys and also the seeker Decoy Rejection percent. AMAZINGLY, the AIM-92C has a 95% Decoy Rejection while the AIM-9 and the AA-11 both have 100% Decoy rejection!!!

I could swear my Stingers get spoofed by FLARES much more than 5% of the time.

The SAM's have much lower decoy rejection percentages (25-90%) though the FIM-92 has a 100% rejection. Odd as I have NEVER seen an AVENGER shoot ANYTHING down...they are usually all dead meat when the helos arrive. I always think it is odd that the helos fly Escort for the Air Defenses!!!

There is also a parameter for E/IR CCM or the missile's chance to COUNTERACT JAMMING (Radar or IR). For the AIM-9 and AA-11 this is 60% which leaves a 40% chance that the DISCO BALL will actually work. I don't know if the aspect is modelled (i.e. better from the rear, useless from the front). The STINGER is 75% which makes it more probable to get a hit against enemy IR jammers, which are on average only 25% effective. Since the RED helos/MiGs use FLARES more, I don't think this buys us much.

Recluse

P.S. @FRanze: Good points! I didn't want to get into the whole AIM-9 vs. AIM-92 and whether A2A Armament on Helicopters is even common doctrine...thanks for taking the lead. As you say, the detection systems for IR missiles tend to be either radars or sensors devices that attempt to measure the heat signature of the rocket plume driving the missile (since the seeker is totally passive). Apparently the radar type MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System) is installed on some CH-47's.


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#1729212 - 04/18/06 02:23 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Very informative guys (as always). Thank you for the posts.

P.S. I really appreciate the link Recluse. I know that you have connections as far as these matters are concerned. \:\)

#1729213 - 04/18/06 04:30 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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@Recluse

The AA-11 is definately only employed on the MiG-29 in the game - it makes sense given that the F-16 is the only aircraft to employ AIM-9s in the game, and the immediate (or I guess I should say, current/future) nemesis of the AIM-9 is the R-73(AA-11). Additionally, as I suggested earlier, since Ataka is claimed to be able to track air targets, it makes for more effeciency to simply code it as an ATA capable weapon.

As for the IR detection method, I do believe some special operations birds employ passive detection methods for IR missiles, but I've never seen Block I Longbows with such systems. They may have retrofitted them into Block II, however. That said, the ALQ-144 is supposed to be very effective at spoofing IR missiles, but I have only ancedotal (SP?) evidence of this.

EDIT: A picture of a suspected IR missile sensor on a MH-60 .

#1729214 - 04/18/06 05:23 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Very good info, but dont miss the main point of using the STINGER in its sweet spots if you expect a decent PK:

- Range (3 KM, max range)
- Target aspect (rear is usually the hottest IR signature)

So if you are taking on enemy helicopters that are coming at you, and they are still beyond a couple of KM; then you are not setting up for the best kill shot. Plus, the farther away the shot, the less energy the missile will have to maneuver on a moving target and the more time the target has to detect, evade, spoof. Assuming Janes modelled these as such.

Thanks for the download Recluse.

Franze,

I hear ya buddy w/r/t the STINGER not being as bad as some report, yet it isn't foolproof either. I worked on the STINGER's shoulder launch LED display back in the 80s when I was at HUGHES AIRCRAFT CO, so I did get some first hand experience with it. The STINGER did distingush itself against the Soviets in Afgan in the hands of our now terrorist enemies. Thats all I can tell you, else Id have to kill ya. ;\)


Beyond the scope of this discussion of LB2's stinger effectiveness, there are efforts being employed to protect civil aviation from the STINGER manpad IR guided surface to air missiles:

The proposed Northrop Grumman Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures System (LAIRCM) or Nemesis is considered to be the most advanced of its kind, already has been installed on 200 military aircraft.

LAIRCM utilises ultraviolet sensors to search for a missile's efflux signature. If it finds anything, an on-board processor runs through a series of algorithms to resolve if the signal is moving fast and getting closer. If considered a threat, an infrared camera tracks the projectile and a second set of calculations is done. Finally, LAIRCM discharges a multiband infrared laser at the missile, sending it a spurious guidance signals.


AV8R
#1729215 - 04/18/06 07:46 AM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:
- Range (3 KM, max range)
- Target aspect (rear is usually the hottest IR signature)

So if you are taking on enemy helicopters that are coming at you, and they are still beyond a couple of KM; then you are not setting up for the best kill shot. Plus, the farther away the shot, the less energy the missile will have to maneuver on a moving target
The range of a Stinger might be 3km but I tend to launch and hit targets at 4.5km in LB2 which also happens to be LB2's definition of the AIM-92's max range. LB2 does not model the missiles propulsion at all. All missiles have an endless fuel-supply.

And about the Sidewinders and Apaches...
You dont carry Sidewinders because of its range. If you can actually scan that far with an Apache you're not flying where you're supposed to.

#1729216 - 04/18/06 01:30 PM Re: Are your Stinger's missing?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Franze:
@Recluse

The AA-11 is definately only employed on the MiG-29 in the game - it makes sense given that the F-16 is the only aircraft to employ AIM-9s in the game, and the immediate (or I guess I should say, current/future) nemesis of the AIM-9 is the R-73(AA-11). Additionally, as I suggested earlier, since Ataka is claimed to be able to track air targets, it makes for more effeciency to simply code it as an ATA capable weapon.
DARN!! While I had my Strat guide open last night I should have checked to verify the RED Helo A2A armament. I don't think they are using ATAKA..though they very much could, just as we would use a Laser HF but our AI wingmen NEVER would. I thought it would be like an IGLA (as in EECH) which is just an Air Launched SA-16 or SA-18, since these missiles are listed in the tables but are not launched by any ground platforms.. but I don't really know. I am betting on the AA-11, or maybe even an actual STINGER for gameplay parity..but I will re-check the Strat Guide.

Quote:

P.S. I really appreciate the link Recluse. I know that you have connections as far as these matters are concerned.
Actually I DON'T... but its nice that people think so!

Recluse


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