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#1725910 - 04/15/05 05:10 AM To close the day ...  
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Just like in title of picture .READY_TO_MOD \:\)

Perhaps more accurately - just about .. because while we will be hard at work to ugrade those pits and maps HCl will need to figure out how to SHP and TRE this back so we can test it.

And enjoy it !


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1725911 - 04/15/05 08:25 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:
HCl will need to figure out how to SHP and TRE this back so we can test it.
Don't need to TRE them back, just delete the original TRE-file and leave the data-folder intact but place it in parallell to your Longbow 2 folder.

Nice pic. Found the Apache pits yet?

#1725912 - 04/15/05 10:41 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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and leave the data-folder intact but place it in parallell to your Longbow 2 folder.
I did that, or something like that, but I must have done something wrong because Lb2 did not want to start. Tell me how to again please.

And we need HCl to open many things including DOBJECTS.TEX , because the aboves is only stuff found in Art folder right on the open. Spr2bmp applied and only with the right palette. Thanks to Mario for all those tools. Without them I would still be scratching my head.

#1725913 - 04/15/05 12:15 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Originally posted by +G:


Wow!

Why am I getting Grand Prix Legends-ish, Deja Vu?!?

Is there a limitation on the color palette for the 2D Pits? Would sure be nice if we could get someone/or two from say the F4 crowd to adjust these pits. IMO, the work done on those, by that group is outstanding!

Here's what I did with the TRE files.

Extract every TRE file from the c:\janes\longbow2\ folder and the CDROMs to

c:\janes

It puts them into a folder called c:\janes\data

You LB2.EXE resides in c:\janes\Longbow2
(delete every *.tre file in this folder when done).

#1725914 - 04/15/05 02:18 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Here's what I did with the TRE files.

Extract every TRE file from the c:\janes\longbow2\ folder and the CDROMs to

c:\janes

It puts them into a folder called c:\janes\data

You LB2.EXE resides in c:\janes\Longbow2
(delete every *.tre file in this folder when done).
No separation here for any subfolders like \ART, \FONTS, \IFF - equivalent and representing names of old TRE files? Just all bunched up and crammed into \DATA?

#1725915 - 04/15/05 04:39 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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detre creates all the subfolders automatically
Cheers,
Keith

#1725916 - 04/15/05 10:31 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Polak, you could ask this guy to give you a hand





He was sure looking for a home for his 2D cockpits.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=003759#000000


#1725917 - 04/15/05 11:07 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Howbout everybody giving a hand here?

3 sets of pits are ready for the repaint: Longbow, Blackhawk and Kiowa (one day we need a Cobra here too). I will make even a multilayered templates.

The question is and the major issue: where to go for some photo materials to make those Pits really better?

PS. That with exception of that linked BH pit that is. I PMed eyewave right now.

#1725918 - 04/15/05 11:35 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:
Howbout everybody giving a hand here?
There's a couple PCX cockpit pics in
c:\janes\data\wart

SPLSHS13.PCX for example.


One question, will we be limited as to what we can adjust due to the display animations and locations for radars, etc?

#1725919 - 04/16/05 12:19 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Up above I have updated pic with what I feel could be template for repaint of the LB cockpit by all and anyone who "dares".

It is not fuly ready as I believe there are more like 5 subfolders with sides and other views and details. Those I will add to template subsequently. But the idea is this that all is "pieced" up on one canvas in separate layers which are named as the name of the cockpit files really are.

If you say ... double the resolution now and overlay this with even new photo/drawing (with equally higher resolution) and cut into new "pieces" and name them same way as before - you end up with modded and new cockpit.

The other way is to metidicoulsly repaint and make better each and every piece, which of course can be done too but would take quite long. Quality accomplished this way can be very good though.

Someone here wanted modding....anyone?

#1725920 - 04/16/05 12:24 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Before we go further into that we have to make sure that black windshields and MFD's areas are transparent (!) after we put the cockpit back to the game. It should, but unwelcomed surprises are usually always around the corner.

#1725921 - 04/16/05 12:25 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:

Someone here wanted modding....anyone?
I'm no artist, but the potential you guys have unlocked here is amazing.

Is there a limit as to what colours one can use in the pit?

#1725922 - 04/16/05 12:48 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by +G:
Is there a limit as to what colours one can use in the pit?
I believe that would be 67K or 16.7M colours.
Enough anyway.

#1725923 - 04/16/05 12:49 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Is there a limit as to what colours one can use in the pit?
Very good question.
I am hoping that we could stay with true colors 32bit tga format (RGB + alpha for transparency), but I am afraid that we soon could be disapointed.

Then back to indexed format with ... again hopefully new palette which will be recognised (this I feel it WILL). 1st position of the palette will be reserved for transparency.

Many ifs, but slowly we may get all that peeled off. But we need to grow larger group, come on people ... don't you like to mod LB2?

#1725924 - 04/16/05 12:54 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:
Many ifs, but slowly we may get all that peeled off. But we need to grow larger group, come on people ... don't you like to mod LB2?
I posted a message over at Frugals F4 forum.
Maybe we should spread the joy a bit around the boards. More LB2 fish may bite!

#1725925 - 04/16/05 01:23 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Before you go too far, I've got a question. If you update the 2D cockpits, then go to "Virtual" mode (F4), won't the cockpit view revert to the file data used for the 3D cockpit model? That might look strange if you make changes in the cockpit layout, but might be alright if if you just double the resolution of the existing cockpit files and and make cosmetic changes. Or were you planning on developing new 3D cockpit files, too?


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725926 - 04/16/05 01:31 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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...parts unknown, way unknown....
Reporting for duty sir!...need a cockpit? no problem! Require a apache skin, no sweat. Want a modded terrain? never fear! looking for a male escort? you got him!(ermm, i take the last one back)

tell me what you would like?

i will help where ever i can as this title is where i began the my love for helo sims.

#1725927 - 04/16/05 02:39 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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To EL: I believe that 2D cockpit and VC cockpit both use different textures. VC texs, probable in Dobjects.tex and Fobjects.tex. So upgrade to VC would be another awaiting challenge, but only after HCl manages to unlock it.

To Rocky: On behalf of everybody - Welcome man! Try to come up with good reference materials for LB, Kiowa, Blackhawk pits.

#1725928 - 04/16/05 04:38 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Polak, yeah I figured if the 2D model was modified, it would no longer match the Virtual view, just verifying. It might still look oaky, as long as not too much is changed.
There is one thing that came to mind: if you look at the screenshot of the cockpit that Blind Faith posted, towards the center bottom of the screen, that small green display divided into quadrants is an ECM indicator (and it looks pretty accurate, too) That's what you see missing from the empty instrument holes in most Apache pictures, it's classified stuff and/or not mounted for peacetime use. Now, if a scaled-down version of the ASE screen was to be placed behind that, you would have a more realistic sim, because the symbology/strobe lines/realtive threat position on the current ASE is pretty much what appears on an ECM display of that type (don't ask how I know that - LOL). Understand what I'm saying?


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725929 - 04/16/05 04:42 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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I come to this forum every day to read what you guys doing. Got to tell you all, I feel Useless.... I Wish I could help you guys more..
If there is anything I can do don't hesitate to say it... I will try my best to help make LB2 better.


Don't be ScAAred.
#1725930 - 04/16/05 05:07 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Here I found all I needed at he moment:

web page

However big disapointment that for the sake of playabillity the LB-2's AH-64 pit doesn't resemble the real Thing.
And, what we are all to do now!?
How about that we make 2D cockpit like in LB2 , but Virtual C as the real one?

#1725931 - 04/16/05 05:54 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
How about that we make 2D cockpit like in LB2 , but Virtual C as the real one?
I guess you could try that, but the instruments are going to be pretty small I would think. There's a bunch of stuff in your FOV that's not presented as an instrument in the Sim, like the analog clock, hydraulic pressure gauge, RMI, etc.
I can see why they presented it as 2 MFD's, but give it a try and see. I personally always fly with the left MFD in ASE mode, so I can see how you might be able to add the ASE data as a new (smaller) instrument and pull it off.
That link you found to the .jpg of the cockpits was excellent, bro. I wonder if the guy has some bitmaps that are higher resolution then what he posted? The text got pretty degraded during the compression.


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725932 - 04/16/05 08:04 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by f16falcon:
I come to this forum every day to read what you guys doing. Got to tell you all, I feel Useless.... I Wish I could help you guys more..
If there is anything I can do don't hesitate to say it... I will try my best to help make LB2 better.
I second that...I dont have much time or many skills, but if you need people to beta-test these things, let us know! id be happy to help!

#1725933 - 04/16/05 01:34 PM Re: To close the day ...  

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Just a small note: since cockpits are stored in SHP format, we're limited to 256 colors, probably using a specific palette (not sure about this yet). To convert new cockpits into Longbow, we can use a special color to mark transparent sections of the image or have a black-and-white auxiliary image with transparency information. The latter seems less useful to me, since semi-transparent values aren't supported by the SHP format, but it's also possible.

I can come up with a SHP compressor after i sort out some TEX details, unless someone wants to have a go first.

Mario

#1725934 - 04/16/05 01:56 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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So what you are saying is that you do not see any chance for 32 bit format. Indexed and perhaps even fixed \:\( How can we check THAT?Since that SHP compressor is needed for the files to be back in game.

I did not have a chance, but have anyone tried to run the game with all files detre'ed and shp converted to bitmaps. Because isn't shp just the wrapper too. I know that it is minute probability that we could pull that off, but IMHO we should try it.

As far as auxliary transparency file this is going to be just like in Gunship!. I like this solution better because it gives semitransparency as well as ... whatever.
Where this additional pic will be stored and how?

Someone else .... ? You are da Man and the only Man.

#1725935 - 04/16/05 02:45 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
i will help where ever i can as this title is where i began the my love for helo sims.
Rocky let us gather resources. I remember you were posting some shots of AH-64 pit before. But also take look at the link I gave up above. I think that thing really is most decent material I've seen todate. It should rally be used as some sort of template or start for other cockpits too. As EL advises, let us see if the author has higher res.

Let us really try to make this Project with full attention to detail, realism and aesthetics. I know that you are the man for just up to such a task.

Others are most welcomed because it looks like lots of work is opening.

#1725936 - 04/16/05 03:12 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:
Here I found all I needed at he moment:

web page

However big disapointment that for the sake of playabillity the LB-2's AH-64 pit doesn't resemble the real Thing.
And, what we are all to do now!?
How about that we make 2D cockpit like in LB2 , but Virtual C as the real one?
Nice! As mentioned, our's isn't near accurate.

#1725937 - 04/16/05 04:40 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Polak, the pics from this page ar more like the sim... go figure

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jawa/jawa001013_1_n.shtml

maybe we could get larger and more detailed ones

#1725938 - 04/16/05 05:06 PM Re: To close the day ...  

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Polak: The issue is that SHP compression doesn't support semi-transparency, so this information would be lost if black-white maps were used. Ultimately, there's no real advantage in a separate alpha map.

Mario

#1725939 - 04/16/05 06:18 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blind Faith:
Polak, the pics from this page ar more like the sim... go figure

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jawa/jawa001013_1_n.shtml

Thanks for the link, Blind Faith. Yes, that's an AH-64D with the "Glass" cockpit, which is what we have in the game. Polak's link is to an AH-64A with a "traditional" cockpit.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/boeing/ah-64_apache/ah-64d-longbow09-cockpits.jpg
http://www.vtol.org/pdf/crew59.pdf


As ever,
Birdbrain
#1725940 - 04/17/05 02:20 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Thanks to HCl's utylity and when assembling the templates, I noticed that the component textures are 1 pixel short on some edges. That would explain that tiny grid 3x3 I have on 2D cockpits. Hopfully this will be corrected now, but wonder why it happens?

#1725941 - 04/17/05 03:32 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polak:
Thanks to HCl's utylity and when assembling the templates, I noticed that the component textures are 1 pixel short on some edges. That would explain that tiny grid 3x3 I have on 2D cockpits. Hopfully this will be corrected now, but wonder why it happens?
Maybe in game, they compensated or there was a math error, that somehow hid this anomaly.

#1725942 - 04/17/05 03:48 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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"the component textures are 1 pixel short on some edges."
Yes, that was the only thing that made sense looking at it. That's going to be any easy fix of an annoying problem then, agree? Somebody at Jane's missed the last row/column when they were dragging an image, and the hardware of the day didn't show the error because of low resolution?
I work in an old app that makes something like that a real possibility, and have done it myself a time or two.
I think there may be a terrain texture or 2 like that, also, I see some pixel popping between tiles once in a while when flying. Those may be a lot harder to find.
Good work, Polak.


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725943 - 04/17/05 03:56 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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I have a question here:
On my Radeon card, when I enable FSAA, the cockpit (2D) overlays turn black. Is everyone experiencing this, and what do you think causes it? Any known fix for it? Do NVidia cards allow FSAA without this problem?
The terrain looks a LOT better with FSAA, it would sure be nice to have since we have more than enough horsepower to run it.


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725944 - 04/17/05 06:16 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evil Lurker:
I have a question here:
On my Radeon card, when I enable FSAA, the cockpit (2D) overlays turn black. Is everyone experiencing this, and what do you think causes it? Any known fix for it? Do NVidia cards allow FSAA without this problem?
The terrain looks a LOT better with FSAA, it would sure be nice to have since we have more than enough horsepower to run it.
I also have this when I turn on AA. No big deal, I just run it at 1600x1200.

One hint that this may be a palette issue, is press forward or side view. Notice for a split second that it draws properly? So the texture is being drawn, just somethings making all black!

#1725945 - 04/17/05 06:28 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Notice for a split second that it draws properly? So the texture is being drawn, just somethings making all black!
Yes, it displays fine for a second, then gets corrupted and diplays as black. I have a hunch that the AA step modifies the 2D texture file color into something that can't be displayed correctly.


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725946 - 04/17/05 06:45 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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What's interesting is that the cross-members in the center of the canopy (both pilot and CPG cockpits) and the margin around the radio frequency/target panel stay visible. That should be a clue as to what the solution is. Something is different about those, or there is a problem with the lighting algorithm in the game. It appears that the textures that disappear may not be receiving the light map with AA on.
I'm guessing here, can you tell? ;\)


A7N8X Dlx., 2700+@3200 settings, 9700Pro, Sony 17" Trinitron, Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers. WinXP Pro.
#1725947 - 04/18/05 07:30 AM Re: To close the day ...  
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+G, do you have a Radeon too?
8xAA is sweet on my 6800gt. No artifacts except the horizontal and vertical transparent lines in the 2d pits.

#1725948 - 04/18/05 12:26 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow=ASP=:
+G, do you have a Radeon too?
8xAA is sweet on my 6800gt. No artifacts except the horizontal and vertical transparent lines in the 2d pits.
Looks like that ATI's may have issues with AA and the Glide wrapper.

#1725949 - 04/18/05 02:23 PM Re: To close the day ...  
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Quote:
What's interesting is that the cross-members in the center of the canopy (both pilot and CPG cockpits) and the margin around the radio frequency/target panel stay visible. That should be a clue as to what the solution is.
Okay, an update on this: the portion that remains normal is the area overlaid by the IHADDS, which I'm assuming gets addressed and updated, while it appears the 2D overlay is only called once (when changing views), then isn't updated again and gets corrupted.


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