#1533678 - 08/22/06 04:04 AM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,653
DocW
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,653
|
Originally posted by IvanK: err or the thought of a nuke Hunter Killer Sub (or two) prowling the seaboard looking for the carrier, ;)
|
|
#1533679 - 08/22/06 04:43 AM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 9,947
Dervish
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 9,947
|
man, if the carrier ops feel right, that would be worth the price of admission for me
FTX Global
|
|
#1533680 - 08/22/06 02:37 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 301
Marcantilan
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 301
Buenos Aires, Argentina
|
No, it´s not. By the first day of may, 1982, the RN (SSN HMS Spartan in particular) has lost contact with the 25 de Mayo carrier group. But an S-2 Tracker of the argentine carrier pinpointed the HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible battle group. As Baco said, the airwing was not launched because the lack of winds in the area, unable to launch the fully armed and loaded A4Q´s. If you want to read a good history about that, and a good "what if", I could recommend you read this article http://www.fav-club.com/articulos/1demayo.htm Ws originally published in Mach 1 (the official Argentine Naval Aviation Magazine), and the author is Carlos Cal, one of the Tracker pilots onboard 25 de Mayo that day.
Ultima Ratio Regis
|
|
#1533681 - 08/22/06 10:16 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
IvanK
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 916
Aus
|
Well lets see some "Wind over the deck" numbers for the A4 25 May combination. Another well respected book is Falkands The Air war by the British Aviation Research group. It is a very well balanced dissection of the Air War with Argentinian input as well. Here is their description of this event/Day. They too mention the Light winds theory but use the term "suggest". I think there is a more deeper reason the strike wasnt launched. According to this account the S2 Tracker had lost contact so no form of strike direction would have been possible. With a limited Nav kit fitout I doubt wether the A4's could have found the RN fleet on their own, with Strike direction available from the Tracker it might have been viable. This I believe was the real reason the sortie would have been in vain and a decision was made to cancel it. If Wind over the deck was going to be an issue then why even load up the aeroplanes and brief the mission knowing you couldnt get airborne ? This report also indicates the combatants were seperated by 150nm (278Km), thats not a long way at all. If it was simply the light winds theory then why were no A4 strikes launched from the carrier subsequently in the next 3 days ? Why did the carrier return to port on the 5 May... and remain there for the rest of the conflict ? IMO it was husbanding resources. The presance of an unkown number of Nuke subs of the Argentianian coast effectively blockaded the Argentine Navys capital ships into their home ports. In the subsequent shore based strikes I think the Argentine pilots both Navy and Air Force demonstrated amazing courage/determination and airmanship. If you do the Fuel calculations for the Mirage/Dagger operations in particular the magnitude of what was achieved comes to the fore. By the way the link you refer to has some inconsistencies. there is some Gun camera imagery under the section headed "En un A4-Q de ataque". The gunsight imagery is of a Dagger/Mirage III attack, with the sight depression set for a Low angle bombing, its not the gunsight of an A4Q. The title of the page "Un relato imaginario" doesnt that mean an imaginary story ?
|
|
#1533682 - 08/23/06 01:08 AM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 301
Marcantilan
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 301
Buenos Aires, Argentina
|
I insist in my point, according to Argentine Navy sources.
Extract from "No Vencidos" (semi official account of naval operations in the South Atlantic conflict), pag 256.
Loose translation (my english is not that good)
"The carrier sailed as fast the machinery could.
The goal, to reach the 40 knots of relative wind, necesary to launch the carrier air wing: 6 A4Q´s loaded with 6 250kg bombs each. The CAW needed to travel 240 miles, hit the british carriers and back.
But the problem went critic when an absolute calm started. Tha lack of wind meant the A4 jets only could depart with 2 bombs.
The projections suggested that only one of the six skyhawks could reach the carriers and drop the bombs, so the damage of only two bombs was considered negligible and thus, the operation aborted."
Early in May 2, a Harrier detected the 25 de Mayo carrier group. Without an antidote for nuke subs, the commander of TF 79.1 sailed to port.
The CAW was latter used in a multitude of roles: while A4Q Skyhawks destroyed HMS Antelope and Ardent, Trackers and Sea Kings were used actively in SAR, Recon and sub hunting missions.
And finally, the page mentioned in my early post, contains two parts. One historical about what happened and what not and the last one is a what if: what if the wind blows and the skyhawks finally launched?
Of course, it´s always my pleasure to talk (virtually) with a Mirage pilot!!!!! .)
Ultima Ratio Regis
|
|
#1533683 - 08/23/06 12:56 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 249
ECV56_PolTen
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 249
Buenos Aires, Argentina
|
Both theories seem very plausible, wind (the lack of) or submarine stalking. I think the lack of wind is the more probable since the sub danger was known but was not "convincing" until the next day when Belgrano was sink. Anyway, we are drifting from the original subject of this post, that is the very interesting updates that the people of Thunder Works (especially Dante) give us from time to time. Every piece of screenshot or information makes the wait harder
|
|
#1533686 - 08/23/06 05:24 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,338
chronoPilot
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,338
Seattle, WA, USA
|
[Sarcasm] Yada yada :rolleyes: . You Argentinians and Britains have too much nationalism . Don't you watch Fox News . [/Sarcasm] This game really looks like it's coming together. Aircraft that haven't seen a lot of simulation + A theatre that hasn't seen simulation + carrier ops. If Thunderworks can bring this to market, I think it'll be a hit in the sim community. Can't wait :peeingpants:! I like the smokey exhaust in those captures, too!
Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
|
|
#1533687 - 08/23/06 06:36 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,632
Baco
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,632
Buenos Aires, Argentina
|
Agrred To much Nationalism Still, I have spoken with teh pilots that attacked the Invincible and I for one belives them. No propaganda machine, no government, teh Pilot Vicecmodoro Isaak and me, no cameras (except mine of course , no media. Just the man an me. I belive him. You, of course can sustain that the Invincible was never attacked an belive your sources. Moot point discussing this issues since there is no way the UK will give us the right information till the Ban is lifted (after 20 years still the documents are restricted.. if never hit why?) but anyway I´m in "Scully´s" territory here with the cosnpiracy and all. So OK, Let´s say that Officially the Invincible was never hit. I will still belive what I may of course . About the wind thing. Its a Fact, the 25 de Mayo was scuttled and sold as scrap metal couse it´s power plants could not generate enough speed to launch anithing usefull, and to have it as a helicopter carrier was a waste of money. Anyway I am just arguing, not discussing in a bad mood. So don´t take it personally. I propose my view of the events, you yours, and we can exchange opinions, Nothing more than that. But sometimes the proces sheds some light and it sure is interesting to know how the other side views things right? Cheers.
Fighter pilots make movies, Attack Pilots make history.
|
|
#1533693 - 08/28/06 08:55 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,338
chronoPilot
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,338
Seattle, WA, USA
|
Wow! Those are really looking good!
Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
|
|
#1533694 - 08/28/06 11:44 PM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 68
Desert_Fox
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 68
Argentina
|
Excellent Dante, do you plan to make a forum for this sim in your web? Cheers
|
|
#1533695 - 08/29/06 01:45 AM
Re: Updates
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 320
Dante-JT
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 320
Florianópolis - Brazil
|
Pablo Diez: I just did a quick fix myself in the underwing 'decal': I also agree that the A-4Q should be more white, it's too grey now, compared to the real one, will be fixed too. Desert_Fox: possibly.
|
|
|
CD WOFF
by Britisheh. 03/28/24 08:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|