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#1533676 - 08/21/06 03:38 PM Re: Updates  
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DocW Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Baco-ECV56:
It Shouldnt, or onlly a slight drop, But the lack of speed on the carrier and power on the catapults is very, very realistic ;\) That is the reason the attack on the UK flee was aborted. No wind to launch the Scooters with a full combat load...
(in a place ussually too much wind hinders Naval aviation operations.. go figure.)
Thx, that is an interesting piece of trivia. Any book recommendations ?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1533677 - 08/21/06 10:01 PM Re: Updates  
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IvanK Offline
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"That is the reason the attack on the UK fleet was aborted. No wind to launch the Scooters with a full combat load..."

err or the thought of a nuke Hunter Killer Sub (or two) prowling the seaboard looking for the carrier, it had already sunk the Belgrano. The RN Submarine force effectively neutralised the Argentine Navy and kept them in Port.

I think a check of the performance numbers would indicate it would have been possible.

In addition The A4s were regularly Air Refuelled on the way to the Falklands. It would have been a easy method, Launch with little internal fuel hit the tanker Top up and press on. This method has been used by many Air Forces to stay within the weight/performance limits for take off with Max weapon load.

#1533678 - 08/22/06 04:04 AM Re: Updates  
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DocW Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by IvanK:
err or the thought of a nuke Hunter Killer Sub (or two) prowling the seaboard looking for the carrier,
;)

#1533679 - 08/22/06 04:43 AM Re: Updates  
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Dervish Offline
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man, if the carrier ops feel right, that would be worth the price of admission for me


FTX Global
#1533680 - 08/22/06 02:37 PM Re: Updates  
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Marcantilan Offline
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No, its not.

By the first day of may, 1982, the RN (SSN HMS Spartan in particular) has lost contact with the 25 de Mayo carrier group.

But an S-2 Tracker of the argentine carrier pinpointed the HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible battle group.

As Baco said, the airwing was not launched because the lack of winds in the area, unable to launch the fully armed and loaded A4Qs.

If you want to read a good history about that, and a good "what if", I could recommend you read this article

http://www.fav-club.com/articulos/1demayo.htm

Ws originally published in Mach 1 (the official Argentine Naval Aviation Magazine), and the author is Carlos Cal, one of the Tracker pilots onboard 25 de Mayo that day.


Ultima Ratio Regis
#1533681 - 08/22/06 10:16 PM Re: Updates  
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Well lets see some "Wind over the deck" numbers for the A4 25 May combination.

Another well respected book is Falkands The Air war by the British Aviation Research group. It is a very well balanced dissection of the Air War with Argentinian input as well. Here is their description of this event/Day.



They too mention the Light winds theory but use the term "suggest". I think there is a more deeper reason the strike wasnt launched. According to this account the S2 Tracker had lost contact so no form of strike direction would have been possible. With a limited Nav kit fitout I doubt wether the A4's could have found the RN fleet on their own, with Strike direction available from the Tracker it might have been viable. This I believe was the real reason the sortie would have been in vain and a decision was made to cancel it. If Wind over the deck was going to be an issue then why even load up the aeroplanes and brief the mission knowing you couldnt get airborne ? This report also indicates the combatants were seperated by 150nm (278Km), thats not a long way at all.

If it was simply the light winds theory then why were no A4 strikes launched from the carrier subsequently in the next 3 days ? Why did the carrier return to port on the 5 May... and remain there for the rest of the conflict ? IMO it was husbanding resources. The presance of an unkown number of Nuke subs of the Argentianian coast effectively blockaded the Argentine Navys capital ships into their home ports.

In the subsequent shore based strikes I think the Argentine pilots both Navy and Air Force demonstrated amazing courage/determination and airmanship. If you do the Fuel calculations for the Mirage/Dagger operations in particular the magnitude of what was achieved comes to the fore.

By the way the link you refer to has some inconsistencies. there is some Gun camera imagery under the section headed "En un A4-Q de ataque". The gunsight imagery is of a Dagger/Mirage III attack, with the sight depression set for a Low angle bombing, its not the gunsight of an A4Q. The title of the page "Un relato imaginario" doesnt that mean an imaginary story ?

#1533682 - 08/23/06 01:08 AM Re: Updates  
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Marcantilan Offline
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I insist in my point, according to Argentine Navy sources.

Extract from "No Vencidos" (semi official account of naval operations in the South Atlantic conflict), pag 256.

Loose translation (my english is not that good)

"The carrier sailed as fast the machinery could.

The goal, to reach the 40 knots of relative wind, necesary to launch the carrier air wing: 6 A4Qs loaded with 6 250kg bombs each. The CAW needed to travel 240 miles, hit the british carriers and back.

But the problem went critic when an absolute calm started. Tha lack of wind meant the A4 jets only could depart with 2 bombs.

The projections suggested that only one of the six skyhawks could reach the carriers and drop the bombs, so the damage of only two bombs was considered negligible and thus, the operation aborted."

Early in May 2, a Harrier detected the 25 de Mayo carrier group. Without an antidote for nuke subs, the commander of TF 79.1 sailed to port.

The CAW was latter used in a multitude of roles: while A4Q Skyhawks destroyed HMS Antelope and Ardent, Trackers and Sea Kings were used actively in SAR, Recon and sub hunting missions.

And finally, the page mentioned in my early post, contains two parts. One historical about what happened and what not and the last one is a what if: what if the wind blows and the skyhawks finally launched?

Of course, its always my pleasure to talk (virtually) with a Mirage pilot!!!!! .)


Ultima Ratio Regis
#1533683 - 08/23/06 12:56 PM Re: Updates  
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Both theories seem very plausible, wind (the lack of) or submarine stalking.
I think the lack of wind is the more probable since the sub danger was known but was not "convincing" until the next day when Belgrano was sink.

Anyway, we are drifting from the original subject of this post, that is the very interesting updates that the people of Thunder Works (especially Dante) give us from time to time.

Every piece of screenshot or information makes the wait harder

#1533684 - 08/23/06 02:31 PM Re: Updates  
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ricnunes Offline
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Please don't get me wrong but I'm always suspicious of Argetinian sources about the Falkland War. Wasn't the Argentinians official sources that claimed to have hit the HMS Invincible during the Falklands war? This as everyone knows was absolutely false.
So if I have to choose which side (Argentina or Britain) I think it covered the conflict more faithfully to the truth I'll definitly pick the British one!
With wind or not, the truth is that the 25 de Mayo was ordered back home right after the Belgrano was sunk and it makes sense that the 25 de Mayo wasn't used any further because of the Sub threat since it destroyed one of the two most important ships of the Argentinian Navy! Every historian or military analyst around the world seem to concur with the "Sub Threat" theory (except the ones from Argentina, that is)

So I'm with IvanK, if the "Wind theory" was the reason why no attack was launched from the 25 de Mayo than there wouldn't be absolutely no reason to launch other raids against the British Fleet(on the following days for example).

Well, my 2 cents...

#1533685 - 08/23/06 03:39 PM Re: Updates  
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ECV56_PolTen Offline
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The fleet was indeed ordered to continental waters, but that was after the failed launch because of the lack of wind. So, your assumption is correct; the first day the A-4Q couldn't launch from deck because there was no wind, the following day, the Belgrano was sink and the planes had to operate from mainland when the 25 de Mayo retreated to safe waters.
Anyway, the navy continued operating with small vessels if I recall correctly (my knowledge of the conflict is mostly from the air war); the "capital" ships where the ones ordered back. Somebody with more knowledge about the naval operations should confirm this; but, as I said before that would be a matter of another thread, not this one.
About the sources, I find questionable facts in both versions.

#1533686 - 08/23/06 05:24 PM Re: Updates  
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[Sarcasm]
Yada yada :rolleyes: . You Argentinians and Britains have too much nationalism . Don't you watch Fox News . [/Sarcasm]

This game really looks like it's coming together. Aircraft that haven't seen a lot of simulation + A theatre that hasn't seen simulation + carrier ops. If Thunderworks can bring this to market, I think it'll be a hit in the sim community. Can't wait :peeingpants:! I like the smokey exhaust in those captures, too!


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#1533687 - 08/23/06 06:36 PM Re: Updates  
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Baco Offline
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Agrred To much Nationalism \:\)

Still, I have spoken with teh pilots that attacked the Invincible and I for one belives them. No propaganda machine, no government, teh Pilot Vicecmodoro Isaak and me, no cameras (except mine of course ;\) , no media. Just the man an me. I belive him.

You, of course can sustain that the Invincible was never attacked an belive your sources.

Moot point discussing this issues since there is no way the UK will give us the right information till the Ban is lifted (after 20 years still the documents are restricted.. if never hit why?) but anyway Im in "Scullys" territory here with the cosnpiracy and all. So OK, Lets say that Officially the Invincible was never hit.

I will still belive what I may of course ;\) .

About the wind thing. Its a Fact, the 25 de Mayo was scuttled and sold as scrap metal couse its power plants could not generate enough speed to launch anithing usefull, and to have it as a helicopter carrier was a waste of money.

Anyway I am just arguing, not discussing in a bad mood. So dont take it personally. I propose my view of the events, you yours, and we can exchange opinions, Nothing more than that. But sometimes the proces sheds some light and it sure is interesting to know how the other side views things right?

Cheers.


Fighter pilots make movies, Attack Pilots make history.
#1533688 - 08/28/06 09:26 AM Re: Updates  
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Very interesting discussion guys, thanks much for the reading. I hope to read much of that kind of stuff here when the game is out. That's among the reason this particular forum is much promising.

And great screenshots above :p

#1533689 - 08/28/06 12:10 PM Re: Updates  
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More screenshots of the A-4Q external view, while I'm still working hard in the integration of the cockpit to the simulator.















Notice the brighter sea in some pics (following advice from ECV56 forum members), this is actually a setting that will vary a lot depending on weather/time of day.


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#1533690 - 08/28/06 12:34 PM Re: Updates  
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Beautiful

#1533691 - 08/28/06 03:03 PM Re: Updates  
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Dante, one of my "sources" tells me that the Argentine marking under the wing in this screenshot isn't correct.

#1533692 - 08/28/06 08:19 PM Re: Updates  
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Pablo Diez, your source is right, I've just checked in Jorge Nuez Padn A-4Q book and there's a small photo in page 27 of an A-4Q taking off from 25 de Mayo and I see the "anchor" under wing just like over wing - I will fix it \:\)


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#1533693 - 08/28/06 08:55 PM Re: Updates  
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chronoPilot Offline
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Wow! Those are really looking good!


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#1533694 - 08/28/06 11:44 PM Re: Updates  
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Excellent \:\)

Dante, do you plan to make a forum for this sim in your web?

Cheers


#1533695 - 08/29/06 01:45 AM Re: Updates  
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Pablo Diez: I just did a quick fix myself in the underwing 'decal':


I also agree that the A-4Q should be more white, it's too grey now, compared to the real one, will be fixed too.

Desert_Fox: possibly.


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Jet Thunder Project
http://www.thunder-works.com
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