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#1533177 - 12/15/04 10:33 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Fenna Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marcantilan:

And about the Invincible, the argie part of the story tells the attack to the carrier was made by a couple of SUEs and 4 Skyhawks, and the ship was touched by the missile and 500 lb bombs.

You could check the story in any argentinian web page about the war.

But, as facts, note the invincible was the last ship to return and after an engine change in mid seas, suspicious, dont you think ;\)

Hey, no flame war here.

Looking forward to buy this sim!!!!!!!!!! [/QB]
But wasn't the Invincible suffering from engine trouble on her way down to the South atlantic too?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1533178 - 12/15/04 10:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hot Meat Pie:
So what made the Harrier so effective in destroying the Mirage and A4's? Was it the AIM 9L? Pilots? Tactics? From what I understand the Argies were excellent pilots.

HMP
Probably the Blue Fox radar in the SHAR.

#1533179 - 12/15/04 11:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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from what I've heared this is what happened - the military realised it had really fecked up and kept their best trained aircombat pilots in position to defend the capital and against Chilean agression.

#1533180 - 12/15/04 11:56 PM Re: Some updates...  
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The AIM9L and good tactics on the RN part and average tactics on the FAA part. The Blue Fox radar was straight out Pulse only radar, not real flash down low, and at the time of the war limited Fire zone calculation for the Aim9L anyway.

Dont forget that the majority of engagements were with Strike aircraft not carrying defensive armament, limited fuel with the Sea Harriers in a dedicated Air to Air mode.

As to the FAA pilots a pretty stunning hit rate on the ships in the face of very daunting threat environment. In their predominatly Strike role there performance was amazing. How different things might have been if the bomb fusing issues had not ocurred. In the Air to Air role I think they were a little out of their depth facing an extremely well trained opposition with an exceptional missile.

#1533181 - 12/16/04 12:28 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Sharky Ward againmentions in his book that the Flag, Sir Sandy Woodward actually ordered that the Shars NOT use their Bluefox radar at one point because he was convinced by the CO of 800 Sqn that the equipment couldn't be trusted.

#1533182 - 12/16/04 03:44 AM Re: Some updates...  
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i read that book too.

I think the flag made the right decision based on his shoddy information.

he had one squadron saying bluefox is uber.

the other saying it was utterly pants.

So faced with confused information, it seems reasonable i suppose to not use bluefox - using radar would spike argentine radar - just give them a way to get them.

#1533183 - 12/16/04 05:14 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Silly decision...

Bluefox could sweep 800+sq/miles of ocean in a single sweep. Instead the Shar pilots had to fly countless hours of patrols to visually ID any potential threat..."If" they saw that threat in the first instance.

#1533184 - 12/16/04 06:12 AM Re: Some updates...  
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A non PD radar (i.e. Bluefox) is really hopeless in the look down or lo level role. The Cyrano radar in the Mirage III has/had much the same limitations. Lo level in the weeds pick up ranges are down to well less than 5nm. No matter how hard you try ground clutter invades the side lobes at these altitudes. a lot of manual fiddiling with gain and elevation controls is required to get a decent return, not conducive to ones well being whilst roaring around in cruddy wether at hi speed single pilot.

Look up fine, but not many of the anti strike intercepts were look up !

Also Blind transmissions would serve the strikers well with any half decent RWRS system, A quick 30degree turn away from the RWR bearing
in a hi speed low level attack will nullify most intercept geometries. The Sea Harrier not exactly renown for decent speed performance at low level, 2 tanks 2AIM9s! and 2 gun pods... bet it cant do more than 550Knots maybe tops out at 500 or so. Missile rmax being surprisngly small in this regime

I think perhaps you are talking the Blue Fox radar up a bit Goanna \:\)

#1533185 - 12/16/04 08:01 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Not me Ivan...the guy in the drivers seat...Sharky Ward.

I think I'll defer to his opinion on this matter.... ;\)

#1533186 - 12/16/04 08:54 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I've been in the drivers seat Goanna looking at Sea Harriers through the combining glass of Marcel Dassaults pretty machines.. though luckily only over Tasman waters in peace time jousts \:\)

And as I recall the Sea Harriers Bluefox and Mirages Cyrano were pretty evenly matched

#1533187 - 12/16/04 12:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Wasn't the difference between the two SHAR squadrons that one had a Ferranti rep on board who tweaked and peaked Sharkeys radars to best performance whilst 800 didn't?

Have to read the book again........

As for low-level performance, until JT is out the only combat sim we have to compare Mirages and SHARs is Strike Fighters......fun but not definitive!

Cheers,
keith

#1533188 - 12/16/04 01:03 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Yes Keith, this ringed a bell, I remember Ward in the book giving thanks to a couple of Ferranti engineers for their continued support and overnights tweaking - he mentions also there are some SHAR radars performing better than others, and at one point he choose to pick "Shar number 4" or something like that because it got its radar superbly tunned.

This gives a interesting choice for the JT player, if he chooses one or the other SeaHarrier squadron - also remember that he mentions that the 801 SHARs didn't received the countermeasures(chaff/flares) pack during the war while the 800 received it early on, so this balances the radar performance/lack of Ferranti engineer support issue.


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#1533189 - 12/16/04 01:48 PM Re: Some updates...  
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According to the book 801 Squadron were consistently picking up bandits at 23 miles on their radars, whereas 800 were struggling to achieve the same result at half that range, and the Ferranti rep had found that the majority of sets abourd Hermes were not tuned correctly.

Fascinating reading, I'm nearly finished but I can't help amost thinking Sharkey had more animosity toward Hermes and 800 squadron than the AAF !

#1533190 - 12/17/04 10:51 AM Re: Some updates...  
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And at what altitudes were these 23nm contacts, and against what sort of aircraft ?

#1533191 - 12/17/04 11:31 AM Re: Some updates...  
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lifted from page 174 from the conversation between Sharkey and the Ferranti technician.

"First and foremost, Blue Fox is peforming well up to specification, we are still getting the same results as we got in early trials. 23 Miles is our expected contact range on Sea Harrier head-on. And on a Jumbo jet it is over 60 miles, as you and your team should know from our reports."
It was difficult for John to swallow the contact ranges that we clamed.
"I know thats what you have always stated, Sharkey, but our own Ferranti results only give a range on the SHAR of about 18 miles, 23 miles is a little hard to believe."
"we can demonstrate that well enough , John, while you are here. You can talk to all the pilots on the subject and also witness actual results from the Ops room displays."

#1533192 - 12/17/04 01:58 PM Re: Some updates...  
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See http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/fa1.html
for descriptions of combats from the UK perspective.

Generally the SHARs were vectored on to intruders by the much more capable ship-borne radars whilst at high-level and probably only dropped to low-level (if needed) after contact was made or likely.

Also the Mirages were withdrawn to protect the mainland following the Vulcan strikes.

Cheers,
Keith

#1533193 - 12/17/04 08:56 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Right then, Thats Sea Harrier V Sea Harrier. Sea Harrier RCS is huge in comparision to MirageIII/A4.Mirage/Dagger RCS headon is 3 sq m,

Here are some real World Post Falkland war numbers direct from Post DACT de brief Mirage III v Sea Harrier

Sea Harrier V Mirage Co alt 20,000 feet Head on
First detection 18nm. Mirage Config 2 x 1700l tanks. If Clean Pickup ranges around 12nm.


Sea Harrier V Sea Harrier Co alt 20,000 feet Head on 25nm
-----------------------

So in clutter (Alt<5000) or look down expect ranges dramatically less. In the Mirage 5nm max ! versus another Mirage.Pulse only radars are bordering on useless once you get into clutter.

#1533194 - 12/18/04 12:14 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Couple of Sea Fox contact reports from Sharkey's book,

3 T-34s, below at 6 miles, 20' right
2 Mirages, 10' high, 17 miles, 10 ' right

Both after GCI from a controller on a ship, so they knew where to look.

Also

"Two contacts [Canberras] ... at 24 miles ... on the deck"

They certainly believed the Blue Fox was superior to the Mirages radar.

But for JT I wouldnt mind if both were equivalent.

Cheers,
Keith

#1533195 - 12/18/04 01:41 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Keith good numbers, In the Mirage case we are talking 10,000 foot look up. These numbers are consistent.

Regarding the T34's again pretty consistent large RCS with a prop bit like a Helicopter also.

And the Canberra again a big aeroplane. Though I am surprised at 24nm on the deck if its lookdown on the Sea Harriers part.

All good numbers (other than the Canberra ones) and all closely agree with my
experience V the SHAR \:\)

Mirage Versus Canberra best Contact look up was around 15-17nm max

#1533196 - 12/19/04 10:34 AM Re: Some updates...  
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The Harriers were at 3000 ft when they picked up the Canberras, so not really look down.
Cheers,
Keith

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