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#1533057 - 09/08/04 03:02 PM Some updates...  
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Dante-JT Offline
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...of whats going on, in development, lately:

first, the Type 42 destroyer getting ready to sail:


We're starting to implement the damage system - it works in a similar way to current IL-2 - it's fully modular so adding more parts for damage with different textures for different kinds of damage is more a matter of content creation than programming, with a bit of scripting:




The above screenshots are take from our test shell, where we open the model and can view if the animations are working and test the damage levels part by part without having to actually load the entire flight sim - so, the lighting and overall rendering is more simple in our test shell than in the flight sim itself.

As soon as I got fully references for each aircraft model, we'll dive into the effort of modelling a very high detail mesh for the internals of the aircraft - this high detail mesh of the plane's skeleton will then serve for the purpose of creating the \'Normal Maps\' . These will make the relief of damaged surfaces much more appealing. Also it's interesting for the relief of rocky coastlines (common in the Falklands), although of course it will require current top graphic cards for full effect.


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#1533058 - 09/08/04 04:03 PM Re: Some updates...  
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WOW! That is some seriously stunning stuff!

On a percentage scale, how far along would you say you've come with Jet Thunder? Can't wait for it! Keep up the good work! \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533059 - 09/09/04 01:17 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

On a percentage scale, how far along would you say you've come with Jet Thunder?
It's hard to say, there is so much things left to do ahead... Basically, we faced some problems related to terrain (integrating another coder's effort into the sim), this didn't happened yet, and the current terrain we feature is quite ok, but is severely lacking in view range and contour accuracy/roundness. The sim will officially only enter alpha status when this issue is solved and an accurate and LOD-based terrain is up and running in the simulator.

So, I've decided that we should shift the focus to programming the rest of the sim and deal with the terrain problem later. This did wonders for the project as Steve promptly programmed a system to assemble multi-part objects that I'm really pleased with \:\) enabling to do the required complex damage system, amongst other things. Steve is also working in making the sim scriptable through LUA (like Lomac).

With these steps done, all integrated into the engine and working, we could consider half the work done - it'll possibly look and play like a current flight sim - the other half of the project would deal with campaign, avionics and multiplayer. So far, campaign has some bits of code related to route-finding algorithms, so it's embrionary. Avionics will and FM will be modular enough to share the workload amongst other members of the dev team. Multiplayer: we already connected and flew together (myself and Steve, Steve starting the client in one of his rigs, and myself running the client here and connecting to see Steve flying around - at this point in development history, we didn't had collision detection yet, so the test was basically to check if one saw the other and latency/pings (good or bad). With some luck, one more year ahead of full crunch mode and we might enter Beta. ;\)


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#1533060 - 09/09/04 02:23 AM Re: Some updates...  
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#1533061 - 09/09/04 03:29 AM Re: Some updates...  
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i think we could actually be alpha with our current placeholder terrain?

so long as the new terrain conforms to the same interface and slots in nicely.

its more rounded than what it looks. the accurate heightmap dante recently sent me of the falklands looked rather rounded and nice. the sharp bumpyness of the current terrain is because the 'heightmap' used wasnt really a heightmap.

The problem at the moment is that I botched and lost back up, of the code used to tranfer the heightmap into load on demand files.

--

use of LUA. perhaps people on this forum might be interested in this. What I'm trying to set up is a system where we can prototype the flight model in script language. It wont be very quick if there were lots of planes involved - but for online only and small number of AI tests - it could work quite well.

basically if the stock models dont model spin correctly, you'd be able to say - write, i'll program in spin or whatever was felt was lacking.

So people might be able to help develop the FM by prototyping in LUA.

LUA will probably also be used to script some of the avionics to make cockpits fully modable including advanced stuff like HUD programming and radar programming.

Probably these features will be closed from the final release version of the game with scripts encrypted or recoded in C.

#1533062 - 09/09/04 01:35 PM Re: Some updates...  
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In-game screenies please! ;\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533063 - 09/09/04 01:45 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Congratulations. The use of Lua is a terrific idea.

How is the modularization effort?

#1533064 - 09/10/04 05:00 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by semmern:
In-game screenies please! ;\)
I made some just now, just for you.





I'd like to point out that this is still all in development.

those jagged coastlines wont be in the game when its done - and theres other things that will be improved upon visually.

#1533065 - 09/10/04 08:03 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Oh MAN! Thanks! Those look fan-friggin-tastic!!!! \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533066 - 09/10/04 08:23 PM Re: Some updates...  

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You get it to market, I guarantee I'll buy it!

Cheers!

Rick... ;\)

#1533067 - 09/10/04 08:32 PM Re: Some updates...  

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What they said \:D

Dano.

#1533068 - 09/10/04 09:54 PM Re: Some updates...  
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"I prefer to fly alone ... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me" - René Fonck
#1533069 - 09/10/04 10:13 PM Re: Some updates...  
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You got me


You take it easy.. And have a nice day smile

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#1533070 - 09/11/04 04:58 PM Re: Some updates...  
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what we sort of aim for is to be a sort of 'IL2' for the Jet scene.

#1533071 - 09/11/04 05:04 PM Re: Some updates...  
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erm...Where is the Harrier? This is the only sim I'm soooo looking forward to beside Lomac add-ons. \:\)

#1533072 - 09/11/04 05:51 PM Re: Some updates...  
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jolly good. hopefully we wont take forever in finishing this. it would be such a pity if it took so long that it looked seriously dated.

perhaps this might be a good time to point out how flightsimmers could help us:

The Harrier. unlike the argie planes, we've had some trouble obtaining accurate docs - in particular flight manuals of period harriers.

despite it being little more than washing machine technology electronically, the Sea Harrier flightmanual is still a semi-secret doc according to emails enquiries I've made.

FM wise its not really a problem - there wont be any stupid lift flaps thats for sure.

but getting accurate cockpit plans and importantly the flightmanual is so important.

otherwise our strategy will be to model the avionics based on accounts from books - real documentation for similar weopons systems used in the Lynx helecoptor which I think dante has.

HUD wise, from cockpit photos we think - and please correct us if we're wrong anybody! - that the british HUD's are all fairly similar. Both myself and Dante had Tornado for the Amiga. The symbols seemed to match harrier cockpit photos -so we presume the same symbology is used.

So up to now, avoiding this particular hard research problem - we've focused on the jets we do have accurate information on. For example, the skyhawk and the mirage especially.

Currently our screenshots tend to feature the skyhawk because of its simple avionics. Probably our first demo or alpha release will be a skyhawk carrier mission against the british fleet.

#1533073 - 09/11/04 05:52 PM Re: Some updates...  
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The landscape looks amazing, but shouldn't the grass look a little more brown according to the season when the Malvinas/Falklands war happened?

#1533074 - 09/11/04 06:29 PM Re: Some updates...  
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yes. the grass should be a bit more brown..

..and also there should be tufts of that weird falkland long grass. eventually.

#1533075 - 09/11/04 06:59 PM Re: Some updates...  
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just did a quick texture change by fiddling with the rgb balance in paintshop pro.




#1533076 - 09/11/04 07:50 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Great, it looks great and the quality of the light is amazing.

\:D

#1533077 - 09/11/04 09:20 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

erm...Where is the Harrier? This is the only sim I'm soooo looking forward to beside Lomac add-ons.
Speaking in Harriers, the HMS Hermes finally got its uv-mapping done, I did a lot of work over it the past weeks but now it's ready for the paint job at Marcfighter's hands:


And here, the HMS Invincible is being built, starting from the hull:




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#1533078 - 09/11/04 09:47 PM Re: Some updates...  
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[stupid] That's not interesting, I want to see how the sheep are modeled[/stupid]

More seriously, these aircraft carriers are real beauties. I can't wait seen them with textures :p


P.S. Btw, some sheep on the Malvinas/Falklands would be cool to see. Seriously ;\)

#1533079 - 09/11/04 09:58 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Little modeling question: the hulls look so smooth. Are they metanurbed, frozen?

#1533080 - 09/11/04 10:50 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

P.S. Btw, some sheep on the Malvinas/Falklands would be cool to see.
Seriously CHT, I'm modelling a sheep farm to populate the (now) completely desert landscape we have - you know, farming in the Falkland Islands is a monoculture, the product being wool.

So, the 3D models to be created are ranchs, barns, farmhouse, fences, and of course, sheeps and the shepherd's horses - these last two depend on a simple but effective anim method that Steve created a while ago (mesh swap), and also little AI to wander around - Steve once said it'd worth the hassle, so lets do it. \:\)

Ah, yes, Ariel Cancio does the hull modelling in Nurbs style, and other very rounded things too (like the Skyhawks rounded lines) - we work this way: I do a pre-model of the warship, only with polygons (low poly) that could be used for a low LOD - then Ariel Cancio takes over with his Nurbs modelling skills and add the roundness of the hull. But the superestructure is simple polygons usually - the budget for warships is around 10k polys, and the engine is not complaining too much, hopefully - it runs well on very mid to low spec hardware like Athlon 1600s and GeForce 3.


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#1533081 - 09/12/04 08:08 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I know this is wayyy too early but will there be a next sim/add-on? \:D

#1533082 - 09/12/04 10:21 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Have you got the Harrier FM sorted yet? I.e, can it take off vertically at this point, and so on?


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533083 - 09/12/04 11:03 AM Re: Some updates...  
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yes - but pop stalls and other nasty features arnt modelled yet.

Quote:
I know this is wayyy too early but will there be a next sim/add-on?
definately.

#1533084 - 09/15/04 10:06 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Would it be too much trouble to make a short video showing a Harrier landing vertically? After all, that is the plane we're all waiting for \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533085 - 09/15/04 11:05 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but will there be pitching and rolling carrier decks..?

#1533086 - 09/15/04 03:45 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by semmern:
Would it be too much trouble to make a short video showing a Harrier landing vertically? After all, that is the plane we're all waiting for \:D
This probably would be a good idea. Dante or somebody has to provide the relevent models in the new scheme we use to make it look right.. but for fun we could pretend a skyhawk was a harrier?

the skyhawk is our most complete air model.

at the moment though priority is centered on ships - getting the ships to have fancy radars and stuff turning about and the lift systems \:\) for the aircraft carriers. as well as the defence systems for ships like AAA and SAM.

So no promises on a harrier movie. but one will be coming at some point. Infact we may have neglected the harrier a little because of a tendency to focus on jets that we have accurate documentation for: We've had a hard time getting any sort of docs for the sea harrier used in the falklands.

The american varients are easy to get docs for though -but they're all modern age avionics.

so if anybody has details on how and how it looked - the sea harriers avionics - we'd be pleased to receive them.

anyway..

ships that rock about in the sea: Yes of course.

#1533087 - 09/15/04 05:22 PM Re: Some updates...  
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I don't care about the quality of the Harrier model at present. Just watching one doing a proper vertical landing would make my mouth water! \:\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533088 - 09/17/04 06:11 AM Re: Some updates...  

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Wow.

~> http://www.thunder-works.com/stevietopia/skyhawk_5.jpg


Sun shining in the sky looks great. Nice blue sky.

#1533089 - 09/17/04 03:57 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
I don't care about the quality of the Harrier model at present. Just watching one doing a proper vertical landing would make my mouth water!
I did not made a video of the Sea Harrier yet not because of the 3d models, but mostly because there's some important polishing to be made, program-wise. For example, I could simply insert the Sea Harrier in the engine, over the island's terrain and do a vertical take-off - problem is, at the moment the engine doesn't cast shadows of objects on ground, a plane standing still in the ground looks odd. And there is no particle spray where the jet pipes are touching the ground (a Harrier would kick up a lot of dust in those conditions!) to sum up, it will end as an extremely unimpressive video, it's better to cause a good impression with the harrier since the beggining ;\)


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#1533090 - 09/17/04 04:24 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Nonononono! Just seeing one take off/land vertically would be sufficient! I don't care about shadows and dust particles! ;\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533091 - 09/18/04 12:16 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Ok maybe I'll provide a simple video when the HMS Hermes is ready in the sim. ;\)


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#1533092 - 09/18/04 09:51 AM Re: Some updates...  
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You are THE man! \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533093 - 09/22/04 01:03 AM Re: Some updates...  
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HMS Hermes, british flagship in the conflict, with nearly half of its paint work done:



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#1533094 - 09/22/04 09:58 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Looks great!

That is more than enough texturing for you to make a Harrier video ;\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533095 - 09/22/04 01:45 PM Re: Some updates...  
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IT looks Grate!

Its beautifull, pity to have to ruin it with bombs ;\)


Fighter pilots make movies, Attack Pilots make history.
#1533096 - 09/22/04 05:35 PM Re: Some updates...  
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What a marvellous ship!

Here's a good link with large pics for the weathering of the Hermes's skin:

http://www.btinternet.com/~broadsword82/gallery/hermes/hermes.htm

Cheers,

#1533097 - 09/22/04 05:40 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Thanks! \:\)

We're at the moment adding features to the Skyhawk FM, like control surface's efficiency decrease at slow speeds and its deadly spin behavior - although it is not that deadly at the moment, I was able to recover several times given enough altitude. We should later ponder about the best way to cut engine power in a enduring spin (flameout).


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#1533098 - 09/22/04 05:43 PM Re: Some updates...  
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A little remark: on this pic...



... the black line seems larger and more to the left and the deck dirtier with brownish dirt areas.

#1533099 - 09/22/04 05:54 PM Re: Some updates...  
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"and its deadly spin behavior "

Ah, I can't wait to crash myself in the A-4, or even better, in a vicious Mirage III spin \:D

#1533100 - 09/26/04 04:04 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Thanks for the remarks and the photos, CHDT ! Marcfighters is already aware of this and I'm hoping to see this skin ready still this weekend.


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#1533101 - 09/27/04 08:31 PM Re: Some updates...  

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Cant wait to get my hands at Mirage/Dagger controls \:D !

Im deeply proud about the Brazilians and Latin Americans doing this most promissing jet sim around ;\) !

#1533102 - 09/28/04 10:34 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Re the Sea Harrier-

One thing you all might want to think about is that the British forces also used the GR.1 Harrier variant in the Falklands conflict. The Atlantic Conveyor offloaded several before it was sunk. As I recall, the GR.1 and the American AV-8A are very similar.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533103 - 09/29/04 09:57 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Good job guys and gals. Wanted to be politically correct! \:D


Shut up dummy!
#1533104 - 09/30/04 04:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Can't wait for this sim.

What I'm hoping for most is for accurate modelling of the crappy weather and massive swells


#1533105 - 09/30/04 04:46 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Hey Cat - I am pretty sure it was the GR3 Harrier (with the Laser targeting in the nose) that was used in the Falklands



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#1533106 - 09/30/04 11:06 PM Re: Some updates...  
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I bet the weather was so bad down there, that the pic of the guys on the carrier deck was actually a colour photo..lol

#1533107 - 10/04/04 12:26 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I know they used RAF Harriers b/c there weren't enough Sea Harriers to go round. You're probably right re the type, tho.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533108 - 10/07/04 10:56 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Yeah I remember that - remember we got pretty close to running out of spares and replacements after Atlantic Conveyor got sunk as well - there is a good account of the air war on the link below as well as a link to a British squadron leader's diary of the conflict

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/index.html


Gravity is all in the mind...or the beer!
#1533109 - 10/08/04 10:10 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Cat, the sea Harriers although equipped to drop ordinance were primarily there to provide air defence where as our Gr.3's were to provide tactical recce and ground attack. Although both aircraft carried the sidewinder on the Gr.3 it was a purely defensive weapon where as the Sea Jet used it as its primary offensive aid. Intrestingly the Sea Harrier was the last british Harrier Type to carry working gunpods... ;\)


To..
#1533110 - 10/09/04 03:51 PM Re: Some updates...  
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I'll enjoy flying them both. I have Hastings & Jenkins's book on the war, good read. Type 42 is still one of my favorite DDs.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533111 - 10/11/04 08:05 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Pretty mouthwatering stuff.

What kind of missions, aside of Air-to-Air, did the Harriers fly? Any CAS/Ground Attack?

It's really a most excellent subject for a sim - and refreshing to strap on a british plane for a change from all the american jets.

#1533112 - 10/11/04 08:45 AM Re: Some updates...  
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the Sea Harriers...FRS1 performed the F=Fighter R=Recon,BDA and S=Strike. They performed well under very difficult conditions. The Phantom would have been much better suited to the roll but the Carrier was not in service in 1982...a real shame.

The Argie pilots also performed very well...can't remember the exact figures but most of the Brit task force was hit in some form or another...if it was not for faulty fusing on the bombs ( the Argie pilots flew very low and the bombs did not have a chance to arm ) then the Brits would have been in big trouble.

Certainly a very intersting theatre of war...a definate buy for me...anyone like reading? Try Green eyed Boys...not sure on the author but a good read about the 3 para in the final phase of the campaign.

HMP

#1533113 - 10/13/04 08:50 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Colonel, the Harriers did try some strikes over BAM Malvinas (argie base at Port Stanley.) But AAA prouved to be quite heavy, so they did not continue to attack it. Besides some counter inteligence was formed by the Argies, painting a crater over the runway thus making Biritsh inteligence thint that the runwaty was not operational, when it actually wa till the end of the war.

I don´t think there was any CAS since Argentina did not have any AFV in the islands, and infantery was scatered all over the place with no concentration visible from the air. And we had no arty, onlly two 155mm Howitzers. Thus the fleet pounded the argenitnian positions almos every day. In fact those shipd where the primary targets for the Airforces A-4´s, since we had an aproximate position. Argentinas Airforce attaked the ships on Bombardment and the radar piquets, since they wehre teh onlly ones we could fix on our radar based at the islands. We wouldalso determine the position of teh carriers based on where the Harriers apeared and desapeared ;\) .


Fighter pilots make movies, Attack Pilots make history.
#1533114 - 11/01/04 12:08 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Work In Progress for the HMS Invincible 1982 model for JT (thanks to all people who kindly submitted info and photos of this ship!) ;\)






Also if I got luck tonight I will see here the complete HMS Hermes sailing in the JT's engine for the first time - I'm doing the integration of the 3D model and in the meantime optimizing it heavily so we can place many Sea Harriers and Sea Kings over its deck and still keeping good fps with good looks in our dev computers \:D )


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#1533115 - 11/01/04 04:53 AM Re: Some updates...  
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It's 1:33 AM here now but I've successfully integrated the Hermes for its first appearance in inside JT's 3d engine - realtime for the 1st time \:D - I've buzzed it a couple of times and everything seems ok, although it is missing all its functionality like deck elevators, rotating radar masts and stuff like that, because Steve is needed to program these things \:\)





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#1533116 - 11/01/04 09:38 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Superb !!

#1533117 - 11/01/04 09:51 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Sweet! \:D

Now, get a Harrier and land on it! ;\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533118 - 11/01/04 07:25 PM Re: Some updates...  

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A few simple and (stupid) questions from a newbie:
1st) When you are going to realise this game.
2nd) Will be released in EU?
3rd) You are using 3DS MAX?
4th) The templates are using photoshop 7?
5th) Need any help?
Thanks and sorry for so many questions... \:\)

#1533119 - 11/02/04 02:50 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Skyhawk-Cam

Dante, are we going to get a shot at a preview on this \:D ?

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533120 - 11/02/04 06:19 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Cat: of course ;\) Although at the moment, you will not have much to do except buzzing a couple of rather quiet warships and strafing them with cannon fire and MK-82's...wait until Steve set at least a preliminary mini-campaign working from start to end - he started the database for storage of campaign units ages ago but we're still too far away from having a dynamic naval engagement between HMS Hermes and 25 de Mayo battlegroups all acting with their own AI's...

vakosp: we'd be on "schedule" (self-imposed) problem is Steve's current obsession with Rome:Total War \:\) Luckly, his computer crashes when he plays that too much; seems that the universe conspires to make JT see the light of the day lol; it'll be released on EU; I think Ariel Cancio uses MAX in Argentina but Im not sure; Marcfighters prolly stores all his skins in PS7 .psd's so templates aren't a problem to create based on that.


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#1533121 - 11/02/04 11:25 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I love the sensation of speed in JT! That is something every sim should have.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533122 - 11/02/04 11:30 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I like the look of the engine - seems almost a little desarurated, nice grays and blue water, no fancy bright colors.

#1533123 - 11/02/04 11:43 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Great stuff Dante, Got the wheels down in your A4 ? .... how come the AOA indexers are on \:\)

#1533124 - 11/02/04 04:05 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

Great stuff Dante, Got the wheels down in your A4 ? .... how come the AOA indexers are on
They're all on, blame Steve, he didn't programmed functionality of cockpit's lights so far, so they're all on by default at this stage... :rolleyes: \:\)


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#1533125 - 11/02/04 05:32 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Now, shoo, go make that Harrier vid you promised us ;\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533126 - 11/02/04 09:07 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Now, shoo, go make that Harrier vid you promised us
:) I'm working right now in the Sea Harrier's cockpit, coming out pretty well and my self-imposed deadline to deploy the cockpit and the SeaHarrier split as new compound object to Steve is next saturday, so he can work out the landing-gears-to-carrier-deck physics needed but I can't predict exactly how much time until we have a proper VTOL Harrier video not just a hack..


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#1533127 - 11/02/04 09:50 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante-JT:
Quote:
Now, shoo, go make that Harrier vid you promised us
:) I'm working right now in the Sea Harrier's cockpit, coming out pretty well and my self-imposed deadline to deploy the cockpit and the SeaHarrier split as new compound object to Steve is next saturday, so he can work out the landing-gears-to-carrier-deck physics needed but I can't predict exactly how much time until we have a proper VTOL Harrier video not just a hack..
Ahhh now you're making me moist..

#1533128 - 11/02/04 10:28 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante-JT:
Quote:
Now, shoo, go make that Harrier vid you promised us
:) I'm working right now in the Sea Harrier's cockpit, coming out pretty well and my self-imposed deadline to deploy the cockpit and the SeaHarrier split as new compound object to Steve is next saturday, so he can work out the landing-gears-to-carrier-deck physics needed but I can't predict exactly how much time until we have a proper VTOL Harrier video not just a hack..
You guys rock! I can't wait to see JT finished! And it looks like you're progressing at a fair pace, too. Keep up the good work! \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533129 - 11/02/04 11:20 PM Re: Some updates...  
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I pity the guy that has to map that Herme's model.

Cheers


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#1533130 - 11/08/04 02:55 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

I pity the guy that has to map that Herme's model.
That guy was me \:\) Now I've finishing 25 de Mayo map and then I'll take HMS Invincible for mapping. I'm also progressing quite well in the modelling/texturing/mapping of the SeaHarrier FRS.1 cockpit, if someone has some pic related to it and want to help, please email it to dante@thunder-works.com \:\) It's quite hard to find photos of the FRS.1 cockpit (AV-8B, Gr.7,F/A.2 are very different), let alone find schematics of the cockpit :rolleyes: I think I'll send Steve to a mission at the Fleet Air Arm museum to snap a few photos of the FRS.1 they have there in Yeovilton...


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#1533131 - 11/08/04 06:35 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante-JT:
[QUOTE]
It's quite hard to find photos of the FRS.1 cockpit (AV-8B, Gr.7,F/A.2 are very different), let alone find schematics of the cockpit :rolleyes: I think I'll send Steve to a mission at the Fleet Air Arm museum to snap a few photos of the FRS.1 they have there in Yeovilton...
Tell me about it \:\(

I'm making (read improving) the Airfix 1/48 version , for the Harrier that saw the most air-combat action there is sod-all on the internet.

Anyone with any pictures of the FRS-1 cockpit and any fuselage close-ups I'd be very grateful

john(no@spam)skiisworld.plus.com

#1533132 - 11/09/04 09:30 PM Re: Some updates...  
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How different is the FRS1 cockpit to the GR3?
Probably quite a bit, radar at least!
....but there is an excellent article in this months Flypast about RAF Harrier ops in the Falklands, including a good photo of the GR3 cockpit.
Lots of info about the GR3 missions, including CAS with the Marines, Laser Guided bombing with the SAS marking the target, anti-helicpter and anti-Pucara missions etc, etc.

Cheers,
Keith

#1533133 - 11/11/04 04:20 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante-JT:
Cat: of course ;\) Although at the moment, you will not have much to do except buzzing a couple of rather quiet warships and strafing them with cannon fire and MK-82's...wait until Steve set at least a preliminary mini-campaign working from start to end - he started the database for storage of campaign units ages ago but we're still too far away from having a dynamic naval engagement between HMS Hermes and 25 de Mayo battlegroups all acting with their own AI's...
Contact me at cat@SimHQ.com when you all get close to where you all want to go. We'd like to be there for this one-it's one on our watch list.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533134 - 11/26/04 10:08 PM Re: Some updates...  
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MOVIE link xvid codec http://fluffysteve.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/harrierc.avi



there are some little glitches and inconsistencies.

the movie is to satisfy a request to see the harrier.

I just did it last night. the cockpit is a skyhawk cockpit, and the models of both hermes and the sea harrier are both work in progress.

Today, I suddenly realised that if our carrier was moving the plane would slide off the deck due to it using adapted ground physics - the ground doesnt normally move.

So i've sorted that out and now.. happily, i can land on a carrier that is on the move too.

#1533135 - 11/27/04 11:07 PM Re: Some updates...  
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WOW! \:D \:D \:D \:D \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533136 - 11/28/04 05:16 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Definitely on the list of ones we want to take a closer look at. When it comes out it'll almost certainly be an instant classic at this rate.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533137 - 11/28/04 11:37 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I can help with beta testing! \:D


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533138 - 11/28/04 01:03 PM Re: Some updates...  
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I'm slightly behind schedule regarding Sea Harrier cockpit, because I'm delighted with the VTOL physics and wheel-to-carrier-deck physics and I can't stop flying it pretending I'm retorning from CAP over the warzone \:D

Btw, what a 'speedboat' is that carrier, Steve ;\) lol. I was amazed of the physics when I let my plane slid through the open elevator shaft on the deck. heheh. Can't wait to see the damage effects implemented back in the SeaHarrier too.

Some progress in the SeaHarrier FRS.1 cockpit, quite complicated as I have just one photo of the FRS.1 cockpit (from Bill Gunston's book on the Harriers) and I'm using references for sidepanels and other details not in the photo, from other Harriers (like the excellent Gr.3 cockpit walkaround found in the Harrier Special Interest Group.



Still a lot to do, but when it's fully ready (and hopefully with working HUD) I plan to update our news page in our website with a very complete movie - maybe including deck ramp STOVL take-off too! ;\)


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#1533139 - 11/28/04 09:35 PM Re: Some updates...  
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That looks phantastic! Keep up the good work!


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533140 - 11/30/04 02:11 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Dante,

How are you going to model the "Blue Vixen" radar? Do you have anyone with RAF experience to help with the displays and such?

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533141 - 11/30/04 04:20 AM Re: Some updates...  
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More words of apreciation and encourgment, this is the sim I'm most looking forward to.

#1533142 - 11/30/04 04:41 AM Re: Some updates...  
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VTOL looks well done, even in this early stage. Bravo.


Latest Scorched Earth (SEOW) Files:
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#1533143 - 11/30/04 03:34 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

Dante,
How are you going to model the "Blue Vixen" radar? Do you have anyone with RAF experience to help with the displays and such?
Cat: Steve tried to contact the Fleet Air Arm museum curator for the SeaHarrier FRS.1 flight/avionics manual but he said these aren't available to the public yet; an alternative plan is to contact BAE Systems directly, as they developed the Blue Fox / Blue Vixen radars. There's also a company who provides support and training tools for the Indian Navy SeaHarriers. Also, Blue Fox is strongly based on Lynx HAS.Mk2 helicopter's Seaspray radar, so as a worst case scenario, lets try to develop an aproximated simulation using Lynx radar data.


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#1533144 - 11/30/04 06:59 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Hmmmm anyone know Sharkey wards email ?

#1533145 - 12/06/04 01:01 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Progressing, but still a lot to do, specially regarding textures:


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#1533146 - 12/06/04 06:02 PM Re: Some updates...  

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Awesome. I can't wait!

#1533147 - 12/06/04 09:16 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Whaddya mean a lot to do? It looks rather complete to me!!! \:\)


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533148 - 12/06/04 11:57 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Ahooooaaaaaa \:D

#1533149 - 12/07/04 02:02 PM Re: Some updates...  

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Do you guys know that a new Freedom of Information act has just gone into effect in the UK this month? If you make a written request to the UK Ministry of Defence for information on the Mk.1 Sea Harrier, they might just give you some of what you want.

#1533150 - 12/07/04 03:15 PM Re: Some updates...  
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JayP: well, that's good news indeed. But, the Sea Harrier FRS.1 details are slowly beggining to emerge for us: some days ago, Steve contacted a person who is in charge of preverving Hawker Hunter material and legacy, this person has the original manuals of the Hawker Hunter T8M , which, as you can see in the linked picture, was used to train Sea Harrier FRS.1 pilots to use the Blue Fox radar - this Hunter was actually equipped with the Blue Fox, notice the odd nose cone with pitot tube over it - exactly the same nose and radar as the Sea Harrier FRS.1 ! \:\)

Also, I've ordered a Harrier Gr.1 / AV-8A flight manual, it's a first generation Harrier (Harrier Gr.1, USMC AV-8A, and the RAF Harrier Gr.3 used in the Falklands all have the same flight performance, actually I will only be missing the Ferranti Laser Ranger & Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) and RWR data/specs, which are the main diferences between Harrier Gr.1/AV-8A and Harrier Gr.3 - the USMC AV-8A has a few different electric itens fitted in by the americans, but nothing that would impact flight performance).

To sum up, it's been very hard to built/collect all the needed references, but sooner or later we'll have the 1st generation Harriers done. \:\)


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#1533151 - 12/07/04 06:16 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Have I told you I'm gonna love this sim? \:D

How's the other stuff going, like terrain modelling, campaign/missions etc.?


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533152 - 12/07/04 06:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by semmern:
Whaddya mean a lot to do? It looks rather complete to me!!! \:\)
Guess that I couldn't agree more

#1533153 - 12/07/04 08:22 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Is the cockpit model (ignoring textures) complete?

#1533154 - 12/07/04 11:04 PM Re: Some updates...  
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semmern: campaign is main priority for Steve while a second goal is to have a fully working Sea Harrier cockpit - this involves a lot of programming, not only my work in the Sea Harrier cockpit model/textures. Terrain was assigned to Romano, he actually completed an accurate model of the islands (programming, based on SRTM data) but unfortunately it's been complicated to integrate this parallel effort into the main flight sim code done by Steve - if we succeed, fine, we're going to have a great and accurate terrain mesh of the battlefield, but at the moment Steve's own terrain effort, although lacking a proper LOD method, is looking good enough and is serving us well at this stage of development.

Lemon: geometry-wise, the cockpit mainly is missing the rear view mirror in the canopy frame, we should think about an efficient method to implement it. Also a few moving parts should be included later, like the usefull Harrier's little "weathervane" outside just in front of the windshield that serves as a yaw sensor for hovering flight.


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#1533155 - 12/08/04 01:12 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Dante: Is great to see this kind of flightsims, I hope that you release soon!!!


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#1533156 - 12/08/04 11:43 PM Re: Some updates...  
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It's looking good, Dante. No one's ever done a Harrier to this standard. I think your efforts will be well received.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#1533157 - 12/09/04 11:33 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Dante - I'm reading Sharkey Wards book at the moment, and he mentions the water injection system on the SHAR that cooled the turbine blades on the Pegasus engine and provided a limited time performance boost in the warmer air temperatures - is this feature going to be added just out of interest ?

#1533158 - 12/09/04 01:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Indeed, Sir! Water-injection and Pegasus engine temperature monitoring will be important for carrier/VTOL operations. Water supply will be limited and will have a flow according to specs in the first generation Harrier flight manual that I've ordered. Temperature makes an impact in V/STOL operations, in the freezing climate of the Falklands, the Harrier was at advantage, while in Middle East Iraq operations, it was at disavantage.


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#1533159 - 12/09/04 01:48 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Superb Dante - good to hear !

Its also interesting to read how highly Sharkey rated the Harriers low-speed manouverability, with those stubby little wings its quite suprising !

#1533160 - 12/09/04 06:12 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

Its also interesting to read how highly Sharkey rated the Harriers low-speed manouverability, with those stubby little wings its quite suprising !
It should be bad in turns (the first generation Harriers, but the second generation AV-8Bs and Gr.7 have big wings trading a bit of its speed for turn capacity and better range/cargo).

Sharkey commented little about this, but is fully noticeable in the docs I've got, is that by just moving the nozzles slightly, not to change drastically the flight path, is enough to trigger the Reaction Control System (RCS), these outlets blow air strongly (direct from Pegasus engine) and with the pitch outlets, it achieves excellent pitch authority in all speeds, this is more close to what Sharkey commented - despite they denying, who can say for sure that they really didn't used a little bit of RCS assistence to bank and pitch together in the gun fights with the slow but agile prop Pucaras as he described in the book ;\)


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#1533161 - 12/09/04 09:38 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Well the Sea Harrier FRS1 and Gr3 are NOT turners.6G Corner velocity Mid flap is around 450Kts IAS, even the Mirage can do better than this with a 6.7G Cv of 375Kts IAS.

As to Sustained turn performance at 1000ft your average Gr3/FRs1 can sustain about 3.6G mid flap.
The Mirage III can sustain 5G up to 9000 feet
and 3G up to 27,000feet .... of these things I know \:\) .... as does Dante

#1533162 - 12/09/04 11:45 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:

Well the Sea Harrier FRS1 and Gr3 are NOT turners. 6G Corner velocity Mid flap is around 450Kts IAS, even the Mirage can do better than this with a 6.7G Cv of 375Kts IAS.
IvanK ;\) Yep I know, by the docs, that first generation Harriers are bad turners, so, do you think am I exaggerating when I say that, to make things more balanced in a dogfight, Harrier pilots used RCS/improved control authority more than they say so? Of course I know this doesn't fix the sustained turn performance in the end. I would like to see Sharkey Ward himself posting here his views - or better - to have you and Ward for a virtual Mirage vs Sea Harrier dogfight in JT one day


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#1533163 - 12/10/04 12:21 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I pick up the virtual guantlet \:\)

#1533164 - 12/12/04 08:23 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Regarding the terrain shots on the first page. Is that representive of the games' world graphics? Don't mean to complain, but is there a reason why the terrain can't look more like that in Jetfighter V? Have you seen JF5's terrain and sky/cloud graphics? It just makes the game much more realistic if you can look out the window and be convinced you are really in the air and not over some virtual video game sterilized world.


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#1533165 - 12/12/04 09:18 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SubyRS:
Regarding the terrain shots on the first page. Is that representive of the games' world graphics? Don't mean to complain, but is there a reason why the terrain can't look more like that in Jetfighter V? Have you seen JF5's terrain and sky/cloud graphics? It just makes the game much more realistic if you can look out the window and be convinced you are really in the air and not over some virtual video game sterilized world.
The terrain on the Falklands islands is rather bland. So much so that the aviation artist Robert Taylor found it difficult to make an interesting painting out of a dogfight between Sharkey Ward and an Argentinian Mirage (Or was it a Dagger?), and in addition to that, from what I gather the terrain in the screenshots is a beta/placeholder.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#1533166 - 12/12/04 10:34 PM Re: Some updates...  
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So would a Mirage III have enough internal fuel to make it back to an airbase in Argentina if he popped of his drop tanks over the Falklands?

HMP

#1533167 - 12/13/04 11:30 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Yes. Rough Rule of thumb for Mirage III at altitude 1nm per gallon of fuel. Clean Mirage with guns and wet leading edges 655 galls
without guns an extra 72galls in gun bay tank so a total of 727 gall is possible. Though I figure 655 value is the one to use.

Nearest Argentine Base from Stanley is Rio grande 381nm, next closest Rio Gallegos 428nm.

Even from Lo level a quick "combat " flight planning pluck gives a fuel Burn from lo level, climb to optimum and descent of 498galls nil wind.

So at lo level there is not a lot combat fuel available a Bingo Fuel is going to be around 600galls, gives 100gall for the circuit at home.
Mirage III uses about 50gall per circuit)

So once the tanks are gone its RTB pretty much straight after.

At High level its a non issue.

Max range profile 2 x 374 gall external tanks (1700L) with 200galls reserve fuel is 1230nm tanks retained)

Post Note: The Dagger has another100galls or so on top of this I believe... clever Isrealis snuck a bit of extra gas into the area behind the cockpit, which in the Mirage III is choka with radar related avionics boxes.

#1533168 - 12/14/04 09:12 AM Re: Some updates...  
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SO I guess the Brits were lucky the Argies had no GCI! ( and lucky the bombs didn't go off in a few of the ships that were hit )

HMP

#1533169 - 12/14/04 10:25 AM Re: Some updates...  
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There was rumor that an Exorcet actually hit one of the RN carriers, but failed to explode...that really would have made things "interesting"...

#1533170 - 12/14/04 11:14 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Well, there's also an Argy squadron who claimed to have bombed the Invincible, there's a painting of it too. I'm not so sure myself ;\)

#1533171 - 12/14/04 11:30 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fenna:
Well, there's also an Argy squadron who claimed to have bombed the Invincible, there's a painting of it too. I'm not so sure myself ;\)
Another tidbit from Sharkeys book, the Argentine news reported sinking the Invincible quite early on in the conflict, as a result when the crew of the spy trawler Narwhal were captured by the SBS and came aboard the Invincible, the STILL refused to believe the ship had not been sunk, and nothing could persuade them otherwise.

#1533172 - 12/14/04 03:28 PM Re: Some updates...  
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No Argentinian CGI in Malvinas? Well, the Westinghouse TFS 43 Radar of nº2 VYCA Group served extremely well all the war, even in that hostile (weather and electronic) enviroment.

The radar survived a Shrike missile attack, bombing runs, extreme winds, etc, and was able to direct CAP´s to Harrier, warning air defenses, even help to fire land based exocets! (a world first)

You could check a good story of the group here: http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/ojo_electronico.html (in spanish, of course)

And about the Invincible, the argie part of the story tells the attack to the carrier was made by a couple of SUE´s and 4 Skyhawks, and the ship was touched by the missile and 500 lb bombs.

You could check the story in any argentinian web page about the war.

But, as facts, note the invincible was the last ship to return and after an engine change in mid seas, suspicious, dont you think ;\)

Hey, no flame war here.

Looking forward to buy this sim!!!!!!!!!!


Ultima Ratio Regis
#1533173 - 12/14/04 10:44 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Sharky Ward mentions in the closing pages of his book that the Argies could have won if they (in his opinion)did one thing....prosecute the Sea Harrier at all costs. For a task force without air cover would have been a sitting duck.

I am looking forward to putting Sharky's theories to the test.

#1533174 - 12/15/04 11:16 AM Re: Some updates...  

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Its looking very good. I was wondering if Tir/Vector will be supported in JT?

#1533175 - 12/15/04 10:11 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Hotmeatpie, the argies did have GCI, 2 radars were installed at Stanley between the airfield and the town a TPS43 and TPS44 I believe. A further GCI radar was located on the north of East Falkand as well.

The TPS44 remained in service until Stanley fell. The radars were not ideally sited so could provide little low level coverage over the islands themselves, however meduim levelto high
level coverage was good . GCI alerting was used by the Argintines throught the conflict.

"Falklands the Air" war by the British Aviation Reasearch group covers the location and employment of these radars in great detail \:\)

IMO If the Argentines had extended the runway at Stanly ASAP the war would have been dramatically different. 100metres of PSP would have done wonders. The roles would have been reversed with the RN/RAF aircraft operating over large stand off distances.

#1533176 - 12/15/04 10:31 PM Re: Some updates...  
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So what made the Harrier so effective in destroying the Mirage and A4's? Was it the AIM 9L? Pilots? Tactics? From what I understand the Argies were excellent pilots.

HMP

#1533177 - 12/15/04 10:33 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marcantilan:

And about the Invincible, the argie part of the story tells the attack to the carrier was made by a couple of SUE´s and 4 Skyhawks, and the ship was touched by the missile and 500 lb bombs.

You could check the story in any argentinian web page about the war.

But, as facts, note the invincible was the last ship to return and after an engine change in mid seas, suspicious, dont you think ;\)

Hey, no flame war here.

Looking forward to buy this sim!!!!!!!!!! [/QB]
But wasn't the Invincible suffering from engine trouble on her way down to the South atlantic too?

#1533178 - 12/15/04 10:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hot Meat Pie:
So what made the Harrier so effective in destroying the Mirage and A4's? Was it the AIM 9L? Pilots? Tactics? From what I understand the Argies were excellent pilots.

HMP
Probably the Blue Fox radar in the SHAR.

#1533179 - 12/15/04 11:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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from what I've heared this is what happened - the military realised it had really fecked up and kept their best trained aircombat pilots in position to defend the capital and against Chilean agression.

#1533180 - 12/15/04 11:56 PM Re: Some updates...  
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The AIM9L and good tactics on the RN part and average tactics on the FAA part. The Blue Fox radar was straight out Pulse only radar, not real flash down low, and at the time of the war limited Fire zone calculation for the Aim9L anyway.

Dont forget that the majority of engagements were with Strike aircraft not carrying defensive armament, limited fuel with the Sea Harriers in a dedicated Air to Air mode.

As to the FAA pilots a pretty stunning hit rate on the ships in the face of very daunting threat environment. In their predominatly Strike role there performance was amazing. How different things might have been if the bomb fusing issues had not ocurred. In the Air to Air role I think they were a little out of their depth facing an extremely well trained opposition with an exceptional missile.

#1533181 - 12/16/04 12:28 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Sharky Ward againmentions in his book that the Flag, Sir Sandy Woodward actually ordered that the Shars NOT use their Bluefox radar at one point because he was convinced by the CO of 800 Sqn that the equipment couldn't be trusted.

#1533182 - 12/16/04 03:44 AM Re: Some updates...  
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i read that book too.

I think the flag made the right decision based on his shoddy information.

he had one squadron saying bluefox is uber.

the other saying it was utterly pants.

So faced with confused information, it seems reasonable i suppose to not use bluefox - using radar would spike argentine radar - just give them a way to get them.

#1533183 - 12/16/04 05:14 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Silly decision...

Bluefox could sweep 800+sq/miles of ocean in a single sweep. Instead the Shar pilots had to fly countless hours of patrols to visually ID any potential threat..."If" they saw that threat in the first instance.

#1533184 - 12/16/04 06:12 AM Re: Some updates...  
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A non PD radar (i.e. Bluefox) is really hopeless in the look down or lo level role. The Cyrano radar in the Mirage III has/had much the same limitations. Lo level in the weeds pick up ranges are down to well less than 5nm. No matter how hard you try ground clutter invades the side lobes at these altitudes. a lot of manual fiddiling with gain and elevation controls is required to get a decent return, not conducive to ones well being whilst roaring around in cruddy wether at hi speed single pilot.

Look up fine, but not many of the anti strike intercepts were look up !

Also Blind transmissions would serve the strikers well with any half decent RWRS system, A quick 30degree turn away from the RWR bearing
in a hi speed low level attack will nullify most intercept geometries. The Sea Harrier not exactly renown for decent speed performance at low level, 2 tanks 2AIM9s! and 2 gun pods... bet it cant do more than 550Knots maybe tops out at 500 or so. Missile rmax being surprisngly small in this regime

I think perhaps you are talking the Blue Fox radar up a bit Goanna \:\)

#1533185 - 12/16/04 08:01 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Not me Ivan...the guy in the drivers seat...Sharky Ward.

I think I'll defer to his opinion on this matter.... ;\)

#1533186 - 12/16/04 08:54 AM Re: Some updates...  
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I've been in the drivers seat Goanna looking at Sea Harriers through the combining glass of Marcel Dassaults pretty machines.. though luckily only over Tasman waters in peace time jousts \:\)

And as I recall the Sea Harriers Bluefox and Mirages Cyrano were pretty evenly matched

#1533187 - 12/16/04 12:37 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Wasn't the difference between the two SHAR squadrons that one had a Ferranti rep on board who tweaked and peaked Sharkeys radars to best performance whilst 800 didn't?

Have to read the book again........

As for low-level performance, until JT is out the only combat sim we have to compare Mirages and SHARs is Strike Fighters......fun but not definitive!

Cheers,
keith

#1533188 - 12/16/04 01:03 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Yes Keith, this ringed a bell, I remember Ward in the book giving thanks to a couple of Ferranti engineers for their continued support and overnights tweaking - he mentions also there are some SHAR radars performing better than others, and at one point he choose to pick "Shar number 4" or something like that because it got its radar superbly tunned.

This gives a interesting choice for the JT player, if he chooses one or the other SeaHarrier squadron - also remember that he mentions that the 801 SHARs didn't received the countermeasures(chaff/flares) pack during the war while the 800 received it early on, so this balances the radar performance/lack of Ferranti engineer support issue.


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#1533189 - 12/16/04 01:48 PM Re: Some updates...  
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According to the book 801 Squadron were consistently picking up bandits at 23 miles on their radars, whereas 800 were struggling to achieve the same result at half that range, and the Ferranti rep had found that the majority of sets abourd Hermes were not tuned correctly.

Fascinating reading, I'm nearly finished but I can't help amost thinking Sharkey had more animosity toward Hermes and 800 squadron than the AAF !

#1533190 - 12/17/04 10:51 AM Re: Some updates...  
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And at what altitudes were these 23nm contacts, and against what sort of aircraft ?

#1533191 - 12/17/04 11:31 AM Re: Some updates...  
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lifted from page 174 from the conversation between Sharkey and the Ferranti technician.

"First and foremost, Blue Fox is peforming well up to specification, we are still getting the same results as we got in early trials. 23 Miles is our expected contact range on Sea Harrier head-on. And on a Jumbo jet it is over 60 miles, as you and your team should know from our reports."
It was difficult for John to swallow the contact ranges that we clamed.
"I know thats what you have always stated, Sharkey, but our own Ferranti results only give a range on the SHAR of about 18 miles, 23 miles is a little hard to believe."
"we can demonstrate that well enough , John, while you are here. You can talk to all the pilots on the subject and also witness actual results from the Ops room displays."

#1533192 - 12/17/04 01:58 PM Re: Some updates...  
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See http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/fa1.html
for descriptions of combats from the UK perspective.

Generally the SHARs were vectored on to intruders by the much more capable ship-borne radars whilst at high-level and probably only dropped to low-level (if needed) after contact was made or likely.

Also the Mirages were withdrawn to protect the mainland following the Vulcan strikes.

Cheers,
Keith

#1533193 - 12/17/04 08:56 PM Re: Some updates...  
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Right then, Thats Sea Harrier V Sea Harrier. Sea Harrier RCS is huge in comparision to MirageIII/A4.Mirage/Dagger RCS headon is 3 sq m,

Here are some real World Post Falkland war numbers direct from Post DACT de brief Mirage III v Sea Harrier

Sea Harrier V Mirage Co alt 20,000 feet Head on
First detection 18nm. Mirage Config 2 x 1700l tanks. If Clean Pickup ranges around 12nm.


Sea Harrier V Sea Harrier Co alt 20,000 feet Head on 25nm
-----------------------

So in clutter (Alt<5000) or look down expect ranges dramatically less. In the Mirage 5nm max ! versus another Mirage.Pulse only radars are bordering on useless once you get into clutter.

#1533194 - 12/18/04 12:14 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Couple of Sea Fox contact reports from Sharkey's book,

3 T-34s, below at 6 miles, 20' right
2 Mirages, 10' high, 17 miles, 10 ' right

Both after GCI from a controller on a ship, so they knew where to look.

Also

"Two contacts [Canberras] ... at 24 miles ... on the deck"

They certainly believed the Blue Fox was superior to the Mirages radar.

But for JT I wouldnt mind if both were equivalent.

Cheers,
Keith

#1533195 - 12/18/04 01:41 AM Re: Some updates...  
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Keith good numbers, In the Mirage case we are talking 10,000 foot look up. These numbers are consistent.

Regarding the T34's again pretty consistent large RCS with a prop bit like a Helicopter also.

And the Canberra again a big aeroplane. Though I am surprised at 24nm on the deck if its lookdown on the Sea Harriers part.

All good numbers (other than the Canberra ones) and all closely agree with my
experience V the SHAR \:\)

Mirage Versus Canberra best Contact look up was around 15-17nm max

#1533196 - 12/19/04 10:34 AM Re: Some updates...  
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,524
Keithb77 Offline
Member
Keithb77  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,524
UK
The Harriers were at 3000 ft when they picked up the Canberras, so not really look down.
Cheers,
Keith

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