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#1439340 - 01/08/01 02:27 AM Falcon 4 future?  

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Just curious as to the future of F4. is it like the Energizer bunny that just keeps on going and going? Is their a goal in mind or an ultimate destination.

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#1439341 - 01/08/01 05:35 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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Perfection I guess...until someone comes up with something better. This still the only "realistic" modern jet sim with a dynamic campaign.

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#1439342 - 01/08/01 07:42 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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>> Is their a goal in mind
or an ultimate destination. <<

Falcon4 is the successor to F3's electronic battlefield series concept...

MPS intended F4 to be the core product in a series of add-ons (planes,theatres, etc...)


Work is well underway to fulfill that promise

FAngs32

#1439343 - 01/10/01 07:03 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  
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Denver, St thomas, St petersbu...
I think it is as simple as the fact that we all have so much fun with the possibilities of this great sim that so many people have joined forces to make it that much more immersive and complete.

I will pose this one thought though. And I must gives Bones credit for making this point to me that has resonated with me since it was made. Have we unwittingly depressed the further development of the Flight sim genre by so dearly holding onto the promise of F4? Have we turned a prejudice toward all new flight sims, and potentially hurt the market by holding them all to the standards we believe falcon has set?

It concerns me. I want sims to progress and succeed.

Food for thought anyway.

Glenn


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#1439344 - 01/10/01 08:04 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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I suspect, that in some respects F4(and variants) is IT.

The hardware evolves due to the dynamics of the market...but there are VERY few if any...(F2+ comes to mind...I`m drawin` blank on any further) developments that I know of, that offer anything in the same league...

F4 has really broken free of it`s creator...and in retrospect...with all the talent, who are makin` an impact on it...there is..IMO...NO FRIGGIN` WAY any organisation motivated by profit(developer/producer) can touch the level of commitment gone onto it...even if the development would to halt today...


I`m not completely sure it`s a bad thing either...hell, we are getting all this for free...plus there might be side effects to this F4 craze...

A brand new, extermely flightsim savvy programmer base, one, that is only secondarily motivated by $$$, and would be rather mentioned in my nightly prayers... (hell...I might even ditch Darwin...

As the story goes...I really don`t see a limit as to how delicate the F4 line can get...hell we`re talkin` new, appropriate to the hardware`s state texture sizes, 3D models, AI, physics modelling...these dudes are boggling my little mind as it is...and they`ve just started unravelling the threads...there might be things comin` out of F4...that started folks on the digital highway...that we have no clue about...


So...to cut the shit short...they are raising the bar...as to if anyone cares to, or able to follow...

I`m not sure I care...I`ll stick with them...even if they decide, thay have something to offer for a price...

And I hope they get to the point, when they can start to sell me the stuff I need...NOW...

BTW Sleepdoc...you`re one of the dreamers, that provided foundation to this brand new F4...world/war...and will never be forgotten for it...

enjoy the notoriety...

[This message has been edited by Toecutter (edited January 10, 2001).]

#1439345 - 01/10/01 08:17 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  
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If you set the way-back machine far enough, I can recall Steve Blankenship talking about the way that Falcon4 was architected for the long haul. Meaning that it was designed to be expanded upon. He had designs on doing add-on aircraft, new theatres, driveable ground vehicles and all sorts.

Lots of problems with integration scope with fast movers, helimacopters and targets (umm, I mean tanks ;-) with human operators of course but still, bold plans (difficult to present the right level of detail to drivers of each vehicle type). So the basic F4 engine and the wargame within it were meant to be extended beyond the original game's scope.

As Glenn points out, it's still cracking good fun to play and clearly people are willing to invest the time and patience to grow new features given just how much fun there is to be had.

Now as to whether the community effort is forestalling future commercial development, well perhaps it might be for F-16 sims, or maybe even for fast jets. But there are still a whole lot of folks out there that aren't that much into jets.

For my two cents I think the biggest problem Falcon4 and games like it present to us as a community of game consumers is that it fragments the market. Falcon4 is perhaps the most depth a study sim could get to and still be commercially viable (well it might have been more so if better managed from the get go I speculate -- maybe that's another thread ;-). This depth is good for those that are really into the Viper. But it doesn't do much for folks that like other jets or for those who are housefan or eggbeater fanatics. And it's divisions like those, flippantly stated or not, that start execs looking at the market and seeing smaller and smaller crowds to sell to.

For the large commercial production houses, I wonder if these niches within the niche that is sim games are big enough to even be a blip on their sales curves. I bet not at present.

I suspect that our best hope short run (next year or two) for study sims is efforts like that in the F4 community today (huzzah!) and then the small enthusiast driven projects more akin to Steel Beasts in terms of development model...couple of guys and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to build a labour of love.


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Contributing Editor, SimHQ
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Cheers,

Mark "Boxer" Doran
Feature Editor, SimHQ
http://www.SimHQ.com
#1439346 - 01/10/01 08:45 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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My other hope is, that as these guys learn to dechipher the code from the driving engines of these sims, and as the hardware matures, there might be enuogh CPU cycles left over to emulate one sim into an other...with morhing/synchronizing their engines...

Thus eliminating the need to develop an all encompassing world war sim engine...

Tho I gots no actual clue `bout what I`m takin`bout...

Hey...just dreamin`...

#1439347 - 01/10/01 04:38 PM Re: Falcon 4 future?  
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Sleepdoc

As for holding the industry to the standards of F4 --- I think that is the best thing that could happen. If a company cannot create a sim that is at least equal to F4 then I don't care if they stay in business or not.

If this means every flight sim company in the world goes out of business then so be it.
I am not willing to take a step backward so that the sim companies can survive.

There is a well known sim maker still trying to create a great sim. If they are able to do it that will be wonderful. But if it continues to fail to meet the F4 standard then I will not be flying it. This is a business for them and for me -- give me a better product and I will buy it.

The pace has been set --- the rabbit will always win over the turtle.

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#1439348 - 01/10/01 06:29 PM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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I agree with George, any sim that does not exceed Falcon is of little value. However, Sleepdoc's fears that the continued development of Falcon quashing further flight sim development is probably unfounded.

This is from an article titled Final Flight? in the Personal Technology section of the San Jose Mercury News. It discussed the status of hard-core flight sims, along with advertising a little for Microsofts Combat Simulator 2, Hasbro/Microprose B-17II, and a couple others. It started off The green indicator on my fighter planes cross hairs told me which way the Japanese Zero is flying, saying how computer game aficionadosdig this immersing World War II aerial combat, but game publishers say the hard-core fans are a dying breed. On bulletin boards on the Web such as Combatsim we hard-core are wondering if the market is dying out for military flight sims.

Alas, the favorite of the aficionados have crash landed. Electronic Arts hasnt published a flight sim since its Janes fighter jet game, F/A-18, came out last year, and mentions Hasbro shutting down Microprose after B-17II. The article says Many of these games faced consumer rebellion because they became too complex. Taking too much advice from hard-core fans, they kept adding feature after featuresome of the games were so realistic that players had to learn hundreds of keyboard commands to fly. Die-hard fans were happy, but the mass market stayed away.

Did manufacturers really listen to us? Either way, the article points out that the average player freaked out at the complexity. That quote came from Darryl Saunders, a marketing guru for Microsofts CFS 2. The comparison of Microsofts Flight Simulator series selling 4 million copies compared to Mig Alley from Interplay Entertainment selling only 22 thousand. No mention was made that Flight Sim spans years and several variations, and Mig Alley stands alone and is relatively new. But, alas, such is newspaper reporting!

Interesting quote from Brian Fargo, CEO of Interplay: We wont be doing any more military flight-sim games. It just isnt a big enough business.

So it seems that possibly our worst fear is coming true: no more quality military flight sims after the next (?) few releases? Was Falcon 4.0 (unmentioned, just the best military flight sim ever created!!), Janes F/A-18, F-15, (insert your favorite here) the last? Ive always agreed with those here who have said that there will always be a niche for us hard-core types (I didnt even know I was one until I discovered Falcon, a whole year after its release!). But, it seems that it is a niche that is not going to be filled anytime soon, which I find sad. Thankfully, we have some good sims out there right now to keep us occupied.

My apologies for any game inaccuracies stated above, as I do not own CFS 2, B-17II, or Microsoft Flight Sim. I just quoted the paper.

So, it is not just a matter of one simulation being developed, killing the market. In fact, I believe that would spur developers to exploit the weaknesses of Falcon 4.0 and design an even better sim. The problem is that the market is apparently not big enough to invest the money or time.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan

#1439349 - 01/11/01 05:19 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  

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Ok...I`m almost sober now ...my point was, that if F4 is "complete"...I really don`t need the "latest and greatest new sim just hitting the market"(which will still be inferior most likely)

Hell, it might reach an actual phase, when the complete install with all the different modz, sounds, cockpits, flight models, theatres might take up 10gigs on your HD...but with a click and point interface to switch between `em... ...and no...I wouldn`t give a damn...I`ll download it all...even on a modem...


No...
sleep...
till Brooklin...

So...whatcha think Doc?

[This message has been edited by Toecutter (edited January 10, 2001).]

#1439350 - 01/11/01 07:58 AM Re: Falcon 4 future?  
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Hi.

Let's also realize that there is nothing from stopping a flight sim company from buying the rights to falcon 4.0, investing a little money into it to upgrade the graphics and make improvements, and then to sell it to the public for a good profit.

Heck, they could even buy it, and then use all the changes eRAZOR and others have made.

Then they could also make add-ons to the sim.

Juggernaut


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